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You misunderstand. I don't mean 'simple' as in base, uncomplicated, or trivial. What I mean is there's no programming problem so complex that it requires the us

by diadem 15y ago

You misunderstand. I don't mean 'simple' as in base, uncomplicated, or trivial. What I mean is there's no programming problem so complex that it requires the use of a hallucinogenic to understand or solve.

5l 15y ago
How do you know? Have you solved every problem there is to solve? And of all the problems you have solved, have you done so in the most elegant and efficient way possible?
- diadem 15y ago
  If I haven't solved every problem there is to solve, is my assertion less true? Is your argument "There are problems in software engineering that can only be solved by dropping acid?" The best programmers in the world -- those who work together to solve the most complex and aggressive problems asked of the human mind -- are those who come to work every day, solve problems, and write code, and go home. They don't spend their time justifying "lifehacks" like taking LSD for that extra "edge" over other programmers.
  - 5l 15y ago
    It can't be justified, that is all. I don't know that there are problems that can only be solved only by taking LSD, but neither can I categorically say that there aren't any at all, as you just did. How do you know? That is what I asked, and you haven't answered me. You're making assertions about the best programmers in the world that you can't possibly back up. How do you know that some of them don't take LSD?
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  - daralthus 15y ago
    Those who, drop acid are curious. They try, they search, and sometimes they find some new ways of thinking. They won't be exceptional programmers because of this, but being a professional and still being curious is not something hardly imaginable.
  - jbooth 15y ago
    The concept of "getting an edge" is so not what we're talking about here.. not quite the opposite but the attitude of wanting to get an edge is the exact opposite. It's about wanting to know more and to expand your horizons for their own sake. Look at some of the "best programmers in the world". Lots of crazy beards in that group, right?
  - bluedanieru 15y ago
    >If I haven't solved every problem there is to solve, is my assertion less true? Either that or you've discovered some property of 'complex' problems that precludes the use of LSD to solve them. Otherwise, yes, it is less true (i.e. baseless and false).
yid 15y ago
Prove it. You made a statement; burden of proof on you.
- diadem 15y ago
  I'm sorry. You're asking me to... enumerate every single problem in software engineering? I don't see the point. How about we take one of the most impressive, extreme cases of software ingenuity: launching the Space Shuttle. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html "But how much work the software does is not what makes it remarkable. What makes it remarkable is how well the software works. This software never crashes. It never needs to be re-booted. This software is bug-free. It is perfect, as perfect as human beings have achieved. Consider these stats : the last three versions of the program -- each 420,000 lines long-had just one error each. The last 11 versions of this software had a total of 17 errors." Do you think that perfection, that stability, in the face of lives at risk for every mistake, is a suitable place to suggest that taking LSD could make them better? These are the best programmers in the world, by many standards. And they're not writing node.js servers and map-reduce queries, they're using billions of dollars of hardware to achieve manned space flight. And they don't take LSD. "It's strictly an 8-to-5 kind of place -- there are late nights, but they're the exception. The programmers are intense, but low-key. Many of them have put in years of work either for IBM (which owned the shuttle group until 1994), or directly on the shuttle software. They're adults, with spouses and kids and lives beyond their remarkable software program. That's the culture: the on-board shuttle group produces grown-up software, and the way they do it is by being grown-ups. It may not be sexy, it may not be a coding ego-trip -- but it is the future of software. When you're ready to take the next step -- when you have to write perfect software instead of software that's just good enough -- then it's time to grow up."
  - goatforce5 15y ago
    "And they don't take LSD." Says who? The article says 260 people worked on that part of the code. I'm sure they're all security-cleared and background-checked up the wazoo, but i'd wager that more than a handful of those 260 have had psychedelic experiences at some point.
nantes 15y ago
Not that I plan on trying it, but how do you really know that? Such a broad statement strikes me as saying something akin to 'I can prove there is no God.' As much as I believe it to be true and want to see it proved, I just can't say for sure.
daralthus 15y ago
I understand and I agree with you taking psychedelics is not an everyday task. One does not take a trip to solve a simple problem, but to find ideas and new viewpoints. Those actually could be useful, even in your field. Software or not.
padmanabhan01 15y ago
It's not just about solving problems. It's also about finding the inspiration or the right approach. coding an algorithm that is predefined and coming up with something like page rank or OOP paradigm are not problems in the same category. psychadelics can definitely help in the latter category.

by diadem 15y ago

5l 15y ago

How do you know? Have you solved every problem there is to solve? And of all the problems you have solved, have you done so in the most elegant and efficient way possible?

diadem 15y ago
If I haven't solved every problem there is to solve, is my assertion less true? Is your argument "There are problems in software engineering that can only be solved by dropping acid?" The best programmers in the world -- those who work together to solve the most complex and aggressive problems asked of the human mind -- are those who come to work every day, solve problems, and write code, and go home. They don't spend their time justifying "lifehacks" like taking LSD for that extra "edge" over other programmers.
- 5l 15y ago
  It can't be justified, that is all. I don't know that there are problems that can only be solved only by taking LSD, but neither can I categorically say that there aren't any at all, as you just did. How do you know? That is what I asked, and you haven't answered me. You're making assertions about the best programmers in the world that you can't possibly back up. How do you know that some of them don't take LSD?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 15y ago
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- daralthus 15y ago
  Those who, drop acid are curious. They try, they search, and sometimes they find some new ways of thinking. They won't be exceptional programmers because of this, but being a professional and still being curious is not something hardly imaginable.
- jbooth 15y ago
  The concept of "getting an edge" is so not what we're talking about here.. not quite the opposite but the attitude of wanting to get an edge is the exact opposite. It's about wanting to know more and to expand your horizons for their own sake. Look at some of the "best programmers in the world". Lots of crazy beards in that group, right?
- bluedanieru 15y ago
  >If I haven't solved every problem there is to solve, is my assertion less true? Either that or you've discovered some property of 'complex' problems that precludes the use of LSD to solve them. Otherwise, yes, it is less true (i.e. baseless and false).

yid 15y ago

Prove it. You made a statement; burden of proof on you.

diadem 15y ago
I'm sorry. You're asking me to... enumerate every single problem in software engineering? I don't see the point. How about we take one of the most impressive, extreme cases of software ingenuity: launching the Space Shuttle. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html "But how much work the software does is not what makes it remarkable. What makes it remarkable is how well the software works. This software never crashes. It never needs to be re-booted. This software is bug-free. It is perfect, as perfect as human beings have achieved. Consider these stats : the last three versions of the program -- each 420,000 lines long-had just one error each. The last 11 versions of this software had a total of 17 errors." Do you think that perfection, that stability, in the face of lives at risk for every mistake, is a suitable place to suggest that taking LSD could make them better? These are the best programmers in the world, by many standards. And they're not writing node.js servers and map-reduce queries, they're using billions of dollars of hardware to achieve manned space flight. And they don't take LSD. "It's strictly an 8-to-5 kind of place -- there are late nights, but they're the exception. The programmers are intense, but low-key. Many of them have put in years of work either for IBM (which owned the shuttle group until 1994), or directly on the shuttle software. They're adults, with spouses and kids and lives beyond their remarkable software program. That's the culture: the on-board shuttle group produces grown-up software, and the way they do it is by being grown-ups. It may not be sexy, it may not be a coding ego-trip -- but it is the future of software. When you're ready to take the next step -- when you have to write perfect software instead of software that's just good enough -- then it's time to grow up."
- goatforce5 15y ago
  "And they don't take LSD." Says who? The article says 260 people worked on that part of the code. I'm sure they're all security-cleared and background-checked up the wazoo, but i'd wager that more than a handful of those 260 have had psychedelic experiences at some point.

nantes 15y ago

Not that I plan on trying it, but how do you really know that? Such a broad statement strikes me as saying something akin to 'I can prove there is no God.' As much as I believe it to be true and want to see it proved, I just can't say for sure.

daralthus 15y ago

I understand and I agree with you taking psychedelics is not an everyday task. One does not take a trip to solve a simple problem, but to find ideas and new viewpoints. Those actually could be useful, even in your field. Software or not.

padmanabhan01 15y ago

It's not just about solving problems. It's also about finding the inspiration or the right approach. coding an algorithm that is predefined and coming up with something like page rank or OOP paradigm are not problems in the same category. psychadelics can definitely help in the latter category.