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I'm so tired of these dark patterns. Like NYT not letting you unsubscribe without contacting customer support. Same with many of the food subscription services.
by ehsankia 6y ago
I'm so tired of these dark patterns. Like NYT not letting you unsubscribe without contacting customer support. Same with many of the food subscription services. For me this is a instant red flag. I refuse to use any services that rely on such tactics to make it as hard as possible for users to leave. It should be downright illegal.
- sundvor 6y agoThis is why I actually like using PayPal for my payments. I hold ALL the power then, I can instantly cancel the auto renewal whenever I feel like it.
- scrapcode 6y agoAmen to this. It's a pain as a seller, but it works out for them because I use PayPal whenever possible on a subscription requirement solely because of this. Why is this so hard?
- inetknght 6y agoThat is until PayPal withholds funds paid to you and cancels your account for arbitrary reasons.
- strombofulous 6y agoThis is only a problem as a seller, if you only use it to buy things then - You are the customer (paypal makes money from transaction fees, and customers almost always have the option to not use paypal) - Typically you don't store money in your account, so you would at most lose the ability to pay with paypal
- TristanBall 6y agoDo this with Teamviewer, without formally terminating the account, and they'll chase you for it, including passing your case on to a legal firm ( at least, here in Australia they did ) I sent a fairly polite letter back explaining id long since stopped using the product, and all they were doing now was destroying any residual good will they had. I never heard anything back.
- sundvor 6y agoWow. The last of a dying breed then! If I ever see them come up as an option I'll do well to remember this. Thanks!
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y agoThe only problem is that some companies don't offer Paypal as a payment option.
- sundvor 6y agoTrue. Then there's usually someone else that does.
- ehsankia 6y agoHah, this is exactly how I ended up "unsubscribing" from the NYT. I first migrated my subscription from my credit card to my paypal, then used Paypal to block the payment. They then spent the next week sending me half a dozen emails begging me to re-enable payment, which I marked all as spam in Gmail.
- consumer451 6y agoI’ve been thinking that a dark pattern index would be really neat. Basically name and shame with deep dives. Each product is given a 1-10 value for assholery. Would anyone else find that useful?
- abnercoimbre 6y agoDark Patterns Org [0] has a dedicated Hall of Shame. I'm all for having several places to call these patterns out though. [0] https://darkpatterns.org/ https://darkpatterns.org/
- consumer451 6y agoI saw that site, but that’s the best effort so far, correct? I feel like this might be a Patreon-friendly thing.. funding the work to have it updated at least monthly with a new deep dive and rating. Having it updated regularly seems like an important component to me.
- blahblaaa 6y agoI’m sure there is a market but it’s not the folk that are not in computer software prob. I’m sure UI/UX Designers would love to get their hands on a list like this tho...and exploit it of course. I used to work at a hedge fund in Paris. One day I learned many of their clients were named as contributors to the genocide in rewanda in the 90s. I had a good friend in Switzerland who’s family escaped all that. Went to visit him one time and he insisted I sleep in his bed which was pretty much a board, while he slept on the floor. I had problems working the next day to say the least. I asked the other employees what they thought and the answer was, “if you don’t do it, someone else will”. I think there are always great ideas like the one you presented, but telling sure won’t do anything. You have to show. You have to make it obvious/more beneficial why someone should be interested in what you’re doing than just because it’s good to do. It’s literally the model, in my opinion, of sustainability. Make something that is beneficial and makes money. It’s a hard business case...but I’ve started and been successful with many companies and consulting projects that have achieved this...
- 6y ago
- hokumguru 6y agoLike it or not, this is one of the reasons Apple's payment restrictions on the App Store are a good thing for consumers - they force all subscriptions to go through one easily accessible and cancellable portal.
- Ozzie_osman 6y agoI don't like it at all. They take a forced 30% cut to "protect" me from the bad guys?
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y agoFrom my perspective as a user, that 30% cut is the cost of getting my business. I already trust Apple for software update and other cloud storage and I’d prefer not to have to vet another entity for handling my payments.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago30% is cheaper than my time and inconvenience.
- NeutronStar 6y agoIs 30% of what you install or pay for fraudulent?
- julianlam 6y agoIt's also 10x the cut from a credit card processor... But sure, give away a significant part of your profit...
- maccard 6y agoBecause it's not just the cut from a credit card processor. It's also fraud handling, forex, invoicing, marketing, distribution, and fees for apple to operate the marketplace, plus their cut. I'm not going to defend 30% as the number, nor the _enforced_ 30% cut, but the 10x cut is not an apples to apples comparison. It's the equivalent of saying "just use OVH instead of AWS"
- pfranz 6y agoMy understanding is that many countries, like some in Europe, have a law saying you must be able to cancel using the same medium you used to subscribe. So if you signed up online, you can cancel online. Same with phone, etc. I think I've heard of similar proposals in the US Congress...but nothing that looks close to passing.
- colejohnson66 6y agoLast I heard, California was working on a law similar to that
- intellirogue 6y agoYes, and TeamViewer do in fact allow you to cancel online via a portal if you live in a jurisdiction that requires it. For everyone else, they use this dark pattern. Makes it very clear that they're just trying to scam anyone they can legally get away with.
- artursapek 6y agoWSJ does it, too. And the NYT boasts rising subscription numbers, hah. I wonder what % of those are people who tried and failed to cancel.
- jen729w 6y agoAnd this directly bites the NYT because, if anyone there is reading, I saw your excellent AU$1/week offer just yesterday, almost signed up, then thought, nah, I’ve heard that this is a pain in the ass to cancel. Yeah yeah they probably make more $$ from the people who forget to cancel. Screw ‘em.
- ehsankia 6y agoYep, I used to be a subscriber and unsubscribed. I like their work but I do not stand for dark patterns.
- m463 6y agoYou can't port your cellphone number without a few things - name, address and account number. Guess what -- cellphone account numbers are very hard to find nowadays. They don't give it out without contacting someone directly and getting transferred to someone who asks "Just curious, can I ask why you want your account number?"
- lotsofpulp 6y agoIs it not on your monthly statement? ATT has it on there. Also, given the security implications of losing your phone number, and how SMS 2FA is basically considered a legal authorization, I feel like even more friction is warranted for phone number transfers.
- m463 6y agoA friend was trying to switch from virgin mobile and they hide the account number from day 1 and you have to talk to a representative to get it.
- xerxesaa 6y agoI regularly use privacy.com when I have such concerns. Great service. (I am not affiliated with them in any way. Just a happy customer.)
- goatinaboat 6y agoLike NYT not letting you unsubscribe without contacting customer support Use PayPal as the intermediary and cancel the payment in there.
- ehsankia 6y agoI actually did exactly that :) Switched payment to paypal and then canceled. They then spent the next week sending me over 6 emails begging me to fix my payment.