5 ms·

Speaking without evidence from the frozen wastelands of Canada, it seems that US trade unions are every bit as powerful - if not more so - in specific areas of

by ttul 6y ago

Speaking without evidence from the frozen wastelands of Canada, it seems that US trade unions are every bit as powerful - if not more so - in specific areas of the economy. But, oddly, worker pay and protections are weaker on average. Could this strange state of affairs be the result of a political system that is highly polarized and less fundamentally democratic than the Canadian and European system?

tathougies 6y ago
> Could this strange state of affairs be the result of a political system that is highly polarized and less fundamentally democratic than the Canadian and European system? Countries that regulate speech via law are more democratic than America? Yeah... no thanks.
- phaemon 6y ago
  That isn't what democratic means. It has nothing to do with which laws are passed, it's about how they're passed.
  - tathougies 6y ago
    Yes which is why the United States is not a democracy. There cannot be a law in the United States that suppresses or compels speech no matter how many people want it. The us is a country of freedoms not mob rule.
- deanCommie 6y ago
  There is more to democracy and freedom than one (or two if you choose to include guns) sets of freedom. Practically speaking, there is no differences in the freedom Canadian and European citizens have regarding expression compared to Americans even though EFFECTIVELY certain types of speech are restricted (e.g. holocaust denial) That is because the list of restricted speech is incredibly miniscule, and there are strong protections in place otherwise that prevent a "slippery slope" situation from occurring. ("First you ban me from freely speaking about the holocaust not happening, next you ban me from criticizing the president!") Practically, non-US democracies have demonstrated a stronger commitment freedom of assembly and freedom of the press than the US has over the last 4 years. The only difference is that in the US these protections are guaranteed by an effectively "sacred document" that supercedes all laws (The constitution) But it is more and more clear that that is a bug not a feature of the system, and is causing legitimate harm as your supreme court is getting stacked with "textualist originalists" who think that the wisdom of slave-owning cotton farmers applies unquestionably to 21st century technology and societal concerns. And this is before we even get into the question of what it means for something to be "democratic", which is to say there is a "Democratic electoral process", which we're about to find out just how much the US process has been degraded as seemingly HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people's votes will either be not counted, or will be denied the opportunity to vote. What is happening in the US would be impossible in any other Western Democracy.
  - selectodude 6y ago
    There's no question that the US has more voter suppression issues than Europe, but it's foolish to behave as if it's something that isn't to be worried about. https://www.ips-journal.eu/topics/european-union/voter-suppression-comes-to-europe-3999/ https://www.ips-journal.eu/topics/european-union/voter-suppr...
    - eznzt 6y ago
      Is it completely impopular? It is my opinion that expats should not be allowed to vote. I've asked around and most people seem to disagree, though.
  - bleepblorp 6y ago
    Point of order: the US is far from unique in having a written constitution. Most developed countries have a written constitution that, among other things, guarantees (on paper) basic rights to their citizens. The only exception is the UK, which does not have a single written constitutional document. As you say, the commitment to basic democratic rights is considerably stronger in other western countries than in the US. The kind of abuses the Republican party habitually conducts with the aim of disenfranchising Democratic voters would not be tolerated elsewhere; this is reflected by the fact that the US constitution only explicitly prohibits certain forms of electoral discrimination (i.e. it's a blacklist policy) but does not explicitly grant a right to vote.
  - refurb 6y ago
    This seems really handwavy. “Yes you have fewer free speech rights in Europe and Canada but that doesn’t actually matter”
    - deanCommie 6y ago
      Not any more handwavy than "These countries don't have free speech rights, therefore they're not actually democratic"?
  - balfirevic 6y ago
renewiltord 6y ago
Less fundamentally democratic? As in you mean that most views are subsumed into the two big parties? I sympathize with the view that large parties eliminate diversity in political thought but I'm trying to understand what "less fundamentally democratic" means here.
- dosshell 6y ago
  I interpret the writer as referring to the democracy index. [0] U.S. is at place 25 and is categorized as a flawed democracy, lower than Canada and some European countries (but far from all). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
  - CameronNemo 6y ago
    This index does not take into account the way some constitutions give certain groups greater say in policymaking, adjucation, or execution.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  US Senate (and by extension the federal court system) Electoral college
- bleepblorp 6y ago
  The Canadian constitution is not designed to grossly overweight the views of rural areas over those of populated areas. Canada doesn't have an institution like the US senate, where voters from the least populous state have over 80 times more power than those from the most populous state. The spread in riding (electoral district) size in Canada only varies by a factor of 4.5 if the (mostly unpopulated) northern territories are included (the three territories have one MP, each, to represent populations of less than 30,000) and a factor of 1.5 among the populated provinces. Canadian federal governments are generally comprised of whichever party received the largest share of votes nationally. This is not always the case in the US.
  - kcolford 6y ago
jbay808 6y ago
Can you clarify your comment? It reads to me as ambiguous whether you're saying that worker pay and protections are weaker in Canada or weaker in the US.
bparsons 6y ago
Part of it has to do with the fact that unions have to negotiate for health benefits. In other jurisdictions, primary health insurance isn't a thing, so the union can focus on getting better wages.
BurningFrog 6y ago
New York used to be a mafia town, and the unions were one of their strongholds. I suspect some of that dynamic lives on.
refurb 6y ago
Worker pay and protection is weaker in the US? If we’re talking CA and NY, then I would protection is pretty comparable and pay is higher.

by ttul 6y ago

tathougies 6y ago

> Could this strange state of affairs be the result of a political system that is highly polarized and less fundamentally democratic than the Canadian and European system? Countries that regulate speech via law are more democratic than America? Yeah... no thanks.

phaemon 6y ago
That isn't what democratic means. It has nothing to do with which laws are passed, it's about how they're passed.
- tathougies 6y ago
  Yes which is why the United States is not a democracy. There cannot be a law in the United States that suppresses or compels speech no matter how many people want it. The us is a country of freedoms not mob rule.
deanCommie 6y ago
There is more to democracy and freedom than one (or two if you choose to include guns) sets of freedom. Practically speaking, there is no differences in the freedom Canadian and European citizens have regarding expression compared to Americans even though EFFECTIVELY certain types of speech are restricted (e.g. holocaust denial) That is because the list of restricted speech is incredibly miniscule, and there are strong protections in place otherwise that prevent a "slippery slope" situation from occurring. ("First you ban me from freely speaking about the holocaust not happening, next you ban me from criticizing the president!") Practically, non-US democracies have demonstrated a stronger commitment freedom of assembly and freedom of the press than the US has over the last 4 years. The only difference is that in the US these protections are guaranteed by an effectively "sacred document" that supercedes all laws (The constitution) But it is more and more clear that that is a bug not a feature of the system, and is causing legitimate harm as your supreme court is getting stacked with "textualist originalists" who think that the wisdom of slave-owning cotton farmers applies unquestionably to 21st century technology and societal concerns. And this is before we even get into the question of what it means for something to be "democratic", which is to say there is a "Democratic electoral process", which we're about to find out just how much the US process has been degraded as seemingly HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people's votes will either be not counted, or will be denied the opportunity to vote. What is happening in the US would be impossible in any other Western Democracy.
- selectodude 6y ago
  There's no question that the US has more voter suppression issues than Europe, but it's foolish to behave as if it's something that isn't to be worried about. https://www.ips-journal.eu/topics/european-union/voter-suppression-comes-to-europe-3999/ https://www.ips-journal.eu/topics/european-union/voter-suppr...
  - eznzt 6y ago
    Is it completely impopular? It is my opinion that expats should not be allowed to vote. I've asked around and most people seem to disagree, though.
- bleepblorp 6y ago
  Point of order: the US is far from unique in having a written constitution. Most developed countries have a written constitution that, among other things, guarantees (on paper) basic rights to their citizens. The only exception is the UK, which does not have a single written constitutional document. As you say, the commitment to basic democratic rights is considerably stronger in other western countries than in the US. The kind of abuses the Republican party habitually conducts with the aim of disenfranchising Democratic voters would not be tolerated elsewhere; this is reflected by the fact that the US constitution only explicitly prohibits certain forms of electoral discrimination (i.e. it's a blacklist policy) but does not explicitly grant a right to vote.
- refurb 6y ago
  This seems really handwavy. “Yes you have fewer free speech rights in Europe and Canada but that doesn’t actually matter”
  - deanCommie 6y ago
    Not any more handwavy than "These countries don't have free speech rights, therefore they're not actually democratic"?
- balfirevic 6y ago

renewiltord 6y ago

Less fundamentally democratic? As in you mean that most views are subsumed into the two big parties? I sympathize with the view that large parties eliminate diversity in political thought but I'm trying to understand what "less fundamentally democratic" means here.

dosshell 6y ago
I interpret the writer as referring to the democracy index. [0] U.S. is at place 25 and is categorized as a flawed democracy, lower than Canada and some European countries (but far from all). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  This index does not take into account the way some constitutions give certain groups greater say in policymaking, adjucation, or execution.
CameronNemo 6y ago
US Senate (and by extension the federal court system) Electoral college
bleepblorp 6y ago
The Canadian constitution is not designed to grossly overweight the views of rural areas over those of populated areas. Canada doesn't have an institution like the US senate, where voters from the least populous state have over 80 times more power than those from the most populous state. The spread in riding (electoral district) size in Canada only varies by a factor of 4.5 if the (mostly unpopulated) northern territories are included (the three territories have one MP, each, to represent populations of less than 30,000) and a factor of 1.5 among the populated provinces. Canadian federal governments are generally comprised of whichever party received the largest share of votes nationally. This is not always the case in the US.
- kcolford 6y ago

jbay808 6y ago

Can you clarify your comment? It reads to me as ambiguous whether you're saying that worker pay and protections are weaker in Canada or weaker in the US.

bparsons 6y ago

Part of it has to do with the fact that unions have to negotiate for health benefits. In other jurisdictions, primary health insurance isn't a thing, so the union can focus on getting better wages.

BurningFrog 6y ago

New York used to be a mafia town, and the unions were one of their strongholds. I suspect some of that dynamic lives on.

refurb 6y ago

Worker pay and protection is weaker in the US? If we’re talking CA and NY, then I would protection is pretty comparable and pay is higher.