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> I don't know but I'm not sure we should keep trying as millions of people end up dead every time someone gives it another whirl. This reflexive comment regar

by jahaja 6y ago

> I don't know but I'm not sure we should keep trying as millions of people end up dead every time someone gives it another whirl. This reflexive comment regarding any sort of resemblance of socialism?

chrisseaton 6y ago
We're not talking about socialism, or Stalinism. You're reading words that we didn't use. And I didn't say there's anything wrong with socialism - I didn't even mention it! I live in a country with many socialist policies such as socialised healthcare. It's almost universally supported here. But I don't think most people here would want to try to force everyone to be more-or-less equal.
- jahaja 6y ago
  So what are you referring to with that sentence?
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Are you asking what the whole topic of the thread is? People trying to radically force everyone to be equal.
    - jahaja 6y ago
      Why are you being deliberately obtuse? The sentence I quoted: > I don't know but I'm not sure we should keep trying as millions of people end up dead every time someone gives it another whirl. What is this sentence referring to if not trying to associate future attempts at egalitarianism with Stalinism?
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > Why are you being deliberately obtuse? Why are you asking me to explain things I didn't say? > What is this sentence referring It's referring to people trying to forcibly make everyone more-or-less equal. You're asking me why I'm projecting Stalinism... but you brought up Stalinism, not me. If you think that matches Stalinism then that's something you've introduced to the conversation, not me. People opposed to Stalinism like Trotskyists were also in favour of dictatorship and violently forced equality. Stalin didn't have a monopoly on demonstrably shit ideas for oppressively and violently reshaping society.
        jahaja 6y ago
        So which "whirls" killing millions are you referring to?
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Have you really never heard of any https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_...? If you're going to deny these things happened then I think you're crazy and I'm out the conversation.
        jahaja 6y ago
        Finally. So it's just about the USSR and its off-springs as I thought. Deny? I'm not denying anything, I'm saying that you're projecting those things onto people with fundamentally different ideas, a.k.a democratic ideas, not totalitarian.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        People aren't arguing for democratic ideas though, they're arguing to enforce more-or-less equality. People don't try to achieve that through democracy. They seem to pretty much inevitably decide that 'just to get started it's ok to force it because the ends justify the means...' then before you know it - oppression and totalitarianism. It's played out like this again and again and again. Maybe it's just not such a hot idea?
        jahaja 6y ago
        Could you be less vague and specify examples of people and ideas that you are referring to? It's hard to reply to these vague generalizations. Who are these people that are not arguing for implementing their ideas democraticly? What undemocratic ideas are they proposing? What example do you have of something that started democratic but "then before you know it" ended up with oppression and totalitarianism?

by jahaja 6y ago

chrisseaton 6y ago

We're not talking about socialism, or Stalinism. You're reading words that we didn't use. And I didn't say there's anything wrong with socialism - I didn't even mention it! I live in a country with many socialist policies such as socialised healthcare. It's almost universally supported here. But I don't think most people here would want to try to force everyone to be more-or-less equal.

jahaja 6y ago
So what are you referring to with that sentence?
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Are you asking what the whole topic of the thread is? People trying to radically force everyone to be equal.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    Why are you being deliberately obtuse? The sentence I quoted: > I don't know but I'm not sure we should keep trying as millions of people end up dead every time someone gives it another whirl. What is this sentence referring to if not trying to associate future attempts at egalitarianism with Stalinism?
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > Why are you being deliberately obtuse? Why are you asking me to explain things I didn't say? > What is this sentence referring It's referring to people trying to forcibly make everyone more-or-less equal. You're asking me why I'm projecting Stalinism... but you brought up Stalinism, not me. If you think that matches Stalinism then that's something you've introduced to the conversation, not me. People opposed to Stalinism like Trotskyists were also in favour of dictatorship and violently forced equality. Stalin didn't have a monopoly on demonstrably shit ideas for oppressively and violently reshaping society.
      - jahaja 6y ago
        So which "whirls" killing millions are you referring to?
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Have you really never heard of any https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_...? If you're going to deny these things happened then I think you're crazy and I'm out the conversation.
        jahaja 6y ago
        Finally. So it's just about the USSR and its off-springs as I thought. Deny? I'm not denying anything, I'm saying that you're projecting those things onto people with fundamentally different ideas, a.k.a democratic ideas, not totalitarian.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        People aren't arguing for democratic ideas though, they're arguing to enforce more-or-less equality. People don't try to achieve that through democracy. They seem to pretty much inevitably decide that 'just to get started it's ok to force it because the ends justify the means...' then before you know it - oppression and totalitarianism. It's played out like this again and again and again. Maybe it's just not such a hot idea?
        jahaja 6y ago
        Could you be less vague and specify examples of people and ideas that you are referring to? It's hard to reply to these vague generalizations. Who are these people that are not arguing for implementing their ideas democraticly? What undemocratic ideas are they proposing? What example do you have of something that started democratic but "then before you know it" ended up with oppression and totalitarianism?