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I think you are one of the people with extreme positions like those discussed in the original article.

JKCalhoun 6y ago
Interesting. I view the OP's position as a moral one. If you think it is extreme then you're suggesting one compromise ones morals to "come to the center" or whatever. I mean, to throw in an admitted straw man, were abolitionists too extreme 150+ years ago?
- gadders 6y ago
  No, abolitionists weren't too extreme, but for your straw man to work you'd have to think that Trump has done some things analogous to maintaining slavery.
  - yxhuvud 6y ago
    Well, for example his administration has put people in concentration camps and separated their children from parents. Which is quite analogous on a level of sheer horribleness.
    - gadders 6y ago
      If you're referring to the "cages" at the US/Mexican border, these were also used and indeed built by Obama.
      - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        It’s hard to imagine a more direct icon for supporting open fascism in America right now than someone saying “Obama built the cages” as if it is somehow related to Trump dehumanizing immigrants and separating children illegally or mitigates what Trump has done or in any way makes Obama or Biden or the Democratic party culpable for what Trump has done.
        apta 6y ago
        It means both parties committed atrocities, and the position of some leftists that they hold absolute morality somehow is baseless and delusional.
        mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        Claiming that “Obama built the cages” means both parties committed atrocities or that the parties are anywhere close to “equal” on this topic is a direct endorsement of violent fascism from the right. That is not spin, that is not leftists unfairly claiming moral superiority, nothing remotely like that at all. It is just purely the fact of Trump’s immigration dehumanization. It transgresses against the base requirements of civil society in a way that is deeply worse and not comparable to Obama’s own poor record on immigration, they are not comparable at all. Any attempt to legitimize Trump’s behavior by acting like “both sides” did wrong things is directly equivalent to endorsing violent fascism at this point. It’s morally repugnant and incompatible with baseline civil society - any option to try to excuse Trump’s behavior has been removed.
        apta 6y ago
        The left is also engaging in facist policies. If neither party is willing to admit their atrocities then no progress is going to be made, and just more polarization is going to ensue. It's quite sickening to see the leftists claim moral superiority and virtue signal. I see more willingness to engage in debate from the right.
        mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        No, this is simply false. Your efforts to convert a nearly 100% far-right, Trump-led problem into an obfuscated “both parties” 50/50 issue is completely untethered from reality and is so extremely far away from basic civil discourse that it’s unacceptable. By repeatedly trying to dogmatically assert it’s an issue of both parties, you are doing nothing but assisting horrific fascism from the far right. We are way past any point where someone can just casually claim this is debatable.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
I don't think it is an extremest position to paint Trump and his supporters as largely fascist. Just yesterday I had to hear about voter intimidation by Trump supporters in my own home town. That's not the actions of a few nutters, that's action called for and promoted by Trump himself. At the risk of Godwinning, this is straight out of the Nazi playbook. It is not ok to ignore that we are potentially becoming a fascist state.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  Yeah, the caravan that attacked another Presidential candidate on the highway is straight out of a third world country. I'd love to hear the defense for this .
  - gadders 6y ago
    "attacked"
    - mmastrac 6y ago
      Someone on the Trump side rammed someone on the Biden side so I'd call that an attack
      - CompanionCuuube 6y ago
        Not really: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24969112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24969112
  - noworriesnate 6y ago
    Here's a video of at least part of the incident: https://twitter.com/truthserum4all/status/1322393595962363905 https://twitter.com/truthserum4all/status/132239359596236390... At the start of the video, the bus is in the second from rightmost lane and looks like it's starting to merge into the rightmost lane, which will put it directly in front of the black truck. There's a white crossover SUV that is directly behind the bus and will no longer be directly behind the bus once the bus finishes merging. The camera turns away unfortunately, then pans back to show that the bus has merged and the white SUV crossover which was behind the bus before the lane change is now trying to merge directly into the black truck, in order to stay behind the bus. The black truck then pushes the white SUV crossover back into its own lane. Obviously what the white SUV crossover did was illegal. I think the most charitable interpretation of its behavior is that the driver didn't see the black truck. The black truck driver could have rapidly decelerated to allow the white SUV crossover to merge in front of it, but I don't think it's fair to characterize pushing back on someone trying to force you off the road as "attacking." A more accurate description might be "defending." I probably would have done the same, since I don't like bullies and don't like to endanger the innocent people behind me by rapidly decelerating due to distracted/angry driver next to me. This isn't the best video, but if you pause it and determine which lane each vehicle is in, it seems fairly straightforward. Do you have a different interpretation of this video, or perhaps a better video? EDIT: clarified wording about "attacking" vs "defending"
syops 6y ago
From my perspective the center in American politics has steadily shifted rightward since the Regan administration. As such the perception of what is extreme right was similarly shifted and what was once considered extreme right is mainstream. This is similarly to the idea behind the paradox of tolerance. I suggest that if Trump has not lied enough, grifted enough, broken enough laws, or is not incompetent enough to dissuade people from voting for him then the country has gone too far down the path of tribal politics. Obama was a moderate Republican president by the standards of the 1970s and there are large numbers of Republicans who consider him extreme left. When we shift the center too far to one side of the spectrum then this causes too many people to become unbalanced in their views as they look to the center as their guide. In my opinion this is what is happening in the United States.

Interesting. I view the OP's position as a moral one. If you think it is extreme then you're suggesting one compromise ones morals to "come to the center" or whatever. I mean, to throw in an admitted straw man, were abolitionists too extreme 150+ years ago?

gadders 6y ago
No, abolitionists weren't too extreme, but for your straw man to work you'd have to think that Trump has done some things analogous to maintaining slavery.
- yxhuvud 6y ago
  Well, for example his administration has put people in concentration camps and separated their children from parents. Which is quite analogous on a level of sheer horribleness.
  - gadders 6y ago
    If you're referring to the "cages" at the US/Mexican border, these were also used and indeed built by Obama.
    - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
      It’s hard to imagine a more direct icon for supporting open fascism in America right now than someone saying “Obama built the cages” as if it is somehow related to Trump dehumanizing immigrants and separating children illegally or mitigates what Trump has done or in any way makes Obama or Biden or the Democratic party culpable for what Trump has done.
      - apta 6y ago
        It means both parties committed atrocities, and the position of some leftists that they hold absolute morality somehow is baseless and delusional.
        mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        Claiming that “Obama built the cages” means both parties committed atrocities or that the parties are anywhere close to “equal” on this topic is a direct endorsement of violent fascism from the right. That is not spin, that is not leftists unfairly claiming moral superiority, nothing remotely like that at all. It is just purely the fact of Trump’s immigration dehumanization. It transgresses against the base requirements of civil society in a way that is deeply worse and not comparable to Obama’s own poor record on immigration, they are not comparable at all. Any attempt to legitimize Trump’s behavior by acting like “both sides” did wrong things is directly equivalent to endorsing violent fascism at this point. It’s morally repugnant and incompatible with baseline civil society - any option to try to excuse Trump’s behavior has been removed.
        apta 6y ago
        The left is also engaging in facist policies. If neither party is willing to admit their atrocities then no progress is going to be made, and just more polarization is going to ensue. It's quite sickening to see the leftists claim moral superiority and virtue signal. I see more willingness to engage in debate from the right.
        mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        No, this is simply false. Your efforts to convert a nearly 100% far-right, Trump-led problem into an obfuscated “both parties” 50/50 issue is completely untethered from reality and is so extremely far away from basic civil discourse that it’s unacceptable. By repeatedly trying to dogmatically assert it’s an issue of both parties, you are doing nothing but assisting horrific fascism from the far right. We are way past any point where someone can just casually claim this is debatable.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

I don't think it is an extremest position to paint Trump and his supporters as largely fascist. Just yesterday I had to hear about voter intimidation by Trump supporters in my own home town. That's not the actions of a few nutters, that's action called for and promoted by Trump himself. At the risk of Godwinning, this is straight out of the Nazi playbook. It is not ok to ignore that we are potentially becoming a fascist state.

mmastrac 6y ago
Yeah, the caravan that attacked another Presidential candidate on the highway is straight out of a third world country. I'd love to hear the defense for this .
- gadders 6y ago
  "attacked"
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    Someone on the Trump side rammed someone on the Biden side so I'd call that an attack
    - CompanionCuuube 6y ago
      Not really: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24969112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24969112
- noworriesnate 6y ago
  Here's a video of at least part of the incident: https://twitter.com/truthserum4all/status/1322393595962363905 https://twitter.com/truthserum4all/status/132239359596236390... At the start of the video, the bus is in the second from rightmost lane and looks like it's starting to merge into the rightmost lane, which will put it directly in front of the black truck. There's a white crossover SUV that is directly behind the bus and will no longer be directly behind the bus once the bus finishes merging. The camera turns away unfortunately, then pans back to show that the bus has merged and the white SUV crossover which was behind the bus before the lane change is now trying to merge directly into the black truck, in order to stay behind the bus. The black truck then pushes the white SUV crossover back into its own lane. Obviously what the white SUV crossover did was illegal. I think the most charitable interpretation of its behavior is that the driver didn't see the black truck. The black truck driver could have rapidly decelerated to allow the white SUV crossover to merge in front of it, but I don't think it's fair to characterize pushing back on someone trying to force you off the road as "attacking." A more accurate description might be "defending." I probably would have done the same, since I don't like bullies and don't like to endanger the innocent people behind me by rapidly decelerating due to distracted/angry driver next to me. This isn't the best video, but if you pause it and determine which lane each vehicle is in, it seems fairly straightforward. Do you have a different interpretation of this video, or perhaps a better video? EDIT: clarified wording about "attacking" vs "defending"

syops 6y ago

From my perspective the center in American politics has steadily shifted rightward since the Regan administration. As such the perception of what is extreme right was similarly shifted and what was once considered extreme right is mainstream. This is similarly to the idea behind the paradox of tolerance. I suggest that if Trump has not lied enough, grifted enough, broken enough laws, or is not incompetent enough to dissuade people from voting for him then the country has gone too far down the path of tribal politics. Obama was a moderate Republican president by the standards of the 1970s and there are large numbers of Republicans who consider him extreme left. When we shift the center too far to one side of the spectrum then this causes too many people to become unbalanced in their views as they look to the center as their guide. In my opinion this is what is happening in the United States.