6 ms·

> “ “The damage is done. In people’s minds, Trump is a monster. It’s sad. There are people not talking to me anymore, and I’m not sure that will change,” said G

by mlthoughts2018 6y ago

> “ “The damage is done. In people’s minds, Trump is a monster. It’s sad. There are people not talking to me anymore, and I’m not sure that will change,” said Gomez, who is a fan of Trump’s crackdown on illegal immigrants and handling of the economy.” The real shame here is that she seems to mistakenly think her son is actively cutting her out. If she views Trump’s actions towards immigrants as defensible or even good, which is something that at this point is just utterly incompatible with the basics of civil society, then her own actions are forcing people away from her. It’s sad to see people clinging to aspects of Trump, going down with the ship like this, still so lacking of self-awareness of the extreme degree of (not hyperbole) fascist violence inherent in Trump’s presidency, that she can’t realize this is entirely and unequivocally her own doing. I wish we were still at a point where it was ideologically tractable to vote for Trump not because you like him but because of benign centrist Republican ideas, like generally lower taxes or states rights (regardless of the debates around these, at least they are legitimate, debatable aspects of the moderate Republican core). But we are waaaay past that possibility, to the point where a vote for Trump that claims to be based on other innocuous, normal-time-debatable right-leaning issues is no longer that, and is literally (again, not hyperbole) a tacit vote for fascism and anti-science.

gadders 6y ago
I think you are one of the people with extreme positions like those discussed in the original article.
- JKCalhoun 6y ago
  Interesting. I view the OP's position as a moral one. If you think it is extreme then you're suggesting one compromise ones morals to "come to the center" or whatever. I mean, to throw in an admitted straw man, were abolitionists too extreme 150+ years ago?
  - gadders 6y ago
    No, abolitionists weren't too extreme, but for your straw man to work you'd have to think that Trump has done some things analogous to maintaining slavery.
    - yxhuvud 6y ago
      Well, for example his administration has put people in concentration camps and separated their children from parents. Which is quite analogous on a level of sheer horribleness.
      - gadders 6y ago
        If you're referring to the "cages" at the US/Mexican border, these were also used and indeed built by Obama.
        mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        It’s hard to imagine a more direct icon for supporting open fascism in America right now than someone saying “Obama built the cages” as if it is somehow related to Trump dehumanizing immigrants and separating children illegally or mitigates what Trump has done or in any way makes Obama or Biden or the Democratic party culpable for what Trump has done.
        apta 6y ago
        It means both parties committed atrocities, and the position of some leftists that they hold absolute morality somehow is baseless and delusional.
        mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        Claiming that “Obama built the cages” means both parties committed atrocities or that the parties are anywhere close to “equal” on this topic is a direct endorsement of violent fascism from the right. That is not spin, that is not leftists unfairly claiming moral superiority, nothing remotely like that at all. It is just purely the fact of Trump’s immigration dehumanization. It transgresses against the base requirements of civil society in a way that is deeply worse and not comparable to Obama’s own poor record on immigration, they are not comparable at all. Any attempt to legitimize Trump’s behavior by acting like “both sides” did wrong things is directly equivalent to endorsing violent fascism at this point. It’s morally repugnant and incompatible with baseline civil society - any option to try to excuse Trump’s behavior has been removed.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  I don't think it is an extremest position to paint Trump and his supporters as largely fascist. Just yesterday I had to hear about voter intimidation by Trump supporters in my own home town. That's not the actions of a few nutters, that's action called for and promoted by Trump himself. At the risk of Godwinning, this is straight out of the Nazi playbook. It is not ok to ignore that we are potentially becoming a fascist state.
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    Yeah, the caravan that attacked another Presidential candidate on the highway is straight out of a third world country. I'd love to hear the defense for this .
    - gadders 6y ago
      "attacked"
      - mmastrac 6y ago
        Someone on the Trump side rammed someone on the Biden side so I'd call that an attack
        CompanionCuuube 6y ago
        Not really: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24969112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24969112
    - noworriesnate 6y ago
      Here's a video of at least part of the incident: https://twitter.com/truthserum4all/status/1322393595962363905 https://twitter.com/truthserum4all/status/132239359596236390... At the start of the video, the bus is in the second from rightmost lane and looks like it's starting to merge into the rightmost lane, which will put it directly in front of the black truck. There's a white crossover SUV that is directly behind the bus and will no longer be directly behind the bus once the bus finishes merging. The camera turns away unfortunately, then pans back to show that the bus has merged and the white SUV crossover which was behind the bus before the lane change is now trying to merge directly into the black truck, in order to stay behind the bus. The black truck then pushes the white SUV crossover back into its own lane. Obviously what the white SUV crossover did was illegal. I think the most charitable interpretation of its behavior is that the driver didn't see the black truck. The black truck driver could have rapidly decelerated to allow the white SUV crossover to merge in front of it, but I don't think it's fair to characterize pushing back on someone trying to force you off the road as "attacking." A more accurate description might be "defending." I probably would have done the same, since I don't like bullies and don't like to endanger the innocent people behind me by rapidly decelerating due to distracted/angry driver next to me. This isn't the best video, but if you pause it and determine which lane each vehicle is in, it seems fairly straightforward. Do you have a different interpretation of this video, or perhaps a better video? EDIT: clarified wording about "attacking" vs "defending"
- syops 6y ago
  From my perspective the center in American politics has steadily shifted rightward since the Regan administration. As such the perception of what is extreme right was similarly shifted and what was once considered extreme right is mainstream. This is similarly to the idea behind the paradox of tolerance. I suggest that if Trump has not lied enough, grifted enough, broken enough laws, or is not incompetent enough to dissuade people from voting for him then the country has gone too far down the path of tribal politics. Obama was a moderate Republican president by the standards of the 1970s and there are large numbers of Republicans who consider him extreme left. When we shift the center too far to one side of the spectrum then this causes too many people to become unbalanced in their views as they look to the center as their guide. In my opinion this is what is happening in the United States.
Mikhail_Edoshin 6y ago
> her own actions are forcing people away from her. This reminds me about a situation when a parent says to the kid: I didn't want to beat you, but you forced me to.

gadders 6y ago

I think you are one of the people with extreme positions like those discussed in the original article.

JKCalhoun 6y ago
Interesting. I view the OP's position as a moral one. If you think it is extreme then you're suggesting one compromise ones morals to "come to the center" or whatever. I mean, to throw in an admitted straw man, were abolitionists too extreme 150+ years ago?
- gadders 6y ago
  No, abolitionists weren't too extreme, but for your straw man to work you'd have to think that Trump has done some things analogous to maintaining slavery.
  - yxhuvud 6y ago
    Well, for example his administration has put people in concentration camps and separated their children from parents. Which is quite analogous on a level of sheer horribleness.
    - gadders 6y ago
      If you're referring to the "cages" at the US/Mexican border, these were also used and indeed built by Obama.
      - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        It’s hard to imagine a more direct icon for supporting open fascism in America right now than someone saying “Obama built the cages” as if it is somehow related to Trump dehumanizing immigrants and separating children illegally or mitigates what Trump has done or in any way makes Obama or Biden or the Democratic party culpable for what Trump has done.
        apta 6y ago
        It means both parties committed atrocities, and the position of some leftists that they hold absolute morality somehow is baseless and delusional.
        mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        Claiming that “Obama built the cages” means both parties committed atrocities or that the parties are anywhere close to “equal” on this topic is a direct endorsement of violent fascism from the right. That is not spin, that is not leftists unfairly claiming moral superiority, nothing remotely like that at all. It is just purely the fact of Trump’s immigration dehumanization. It transgresses against the base requirements of civil society in a way that is deeply worse and not comparable to Obama’s own poor record on immigration, they are not comparable at all. Any attempt to legitimize Trump’s behavior by acting like “both sides” did wrong things is directly equivalent to endorsing violent fascism at this point. It’s morally repugnant and incompatible with baseline civil society - any option to try to excuse Trump’s behavior has been removed.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
I don't think it is an extremest position to paint Trump and his supporters as largely fascist. Just yesterday I had to hear about voter intimidation by Trump supporters in my own home town. That's not the actions of a few nutters, that's action called for and promoted by Trump himself. At the risk of Godwinning, this is straight out of the Nazi playbook. It is not ok to ignore that we are potentially becoming a fascist state.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  Yeah, the caravan that attacked another Presidential candidate on the highway is straight out of a third world country. I'd love to hear the defense for this .
  - gadders 6y ago
    "attacked"
    - mmastrac 6y ago
      Someone on the Trump side rammed someone on the Biden side so I'd call that an attack
      - CompanionCuuube 6y ago
        Not really: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24969112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24969112
  - noworriesnate 6y ago
    Here's a video of at least part of the incident: https://twitter.com/truthserum4all/status/1322393595962363905 https://twitter.com/truthserum4all/status/132239359596236390... At the start of the video, the bus is in the second from rightmost lane and looks like it's starting to merge into the rightmost lane, which will put it directly in front of the black truck. There's a white crossover SUV that is directly behind the bus and will no longer be directly behind the bus once the bus finishes merging. The camera turns away unfortunately, then pans back to show that the bus has merged and the white SUV crossover which was behind the bus before the lane change is now trying to merge directly into the black truck, in order to stay behind the bus. The black truck then pushes the white SUV crossover back into its own lane. Obviously what the white SUV crossover did was illegal. I think the most charitable interpretation of its behavior is that the driver didn't see the black truck. The black truck driver could have rapidly decelerated to allow the white SUV crossover to merge in front of it, but I don't think it's fair to characterize pushing back on someone trying to force you off the road as "attacking." A more accurate description might be "defending." I probably would have done the same, since I don't like bullies and don't like to endanger the innocent people behind me by rapidly decelerating due to distracted/angry driver next to me. This isn't the best video, but if you pause it and determine which lane each vehicle is in, it seems fairly straightforward. Do you have a different interpretation of this video, or perhaps a better video? EDIT: clarified wording about "attacking" vs "defending"
syops 6y ago
From my perspective the center in American politics has steadily shifted rightward since the Regan administration. As such the perception of what is extreme right was similarly shifted and what was once considered extreme right is mainstream. This is similarly to the idea behind the paradox of tolerance. I suggest that if Trump has not lied enough, grifted enough, broken enough laws, or is not incompetent enough to dissuade people from voting for him then the country has gone too far down the path of tribal politics. Obama was a moderate Republican president by the standards of the 1970s and there are large numbers of Republicans who consider him extreme left. When we shift the center too far to one side of the spectrum then this causes too many people to become unbalanced in their views as they look to the center as their guide. In my opinion this is what is happening in the United States.

Mikhail_Edoshin 6y ago

> her own actions are forcing people away from her. This reminds me about a situation when a parent says to the kid: I didn't want to beat you, but you forced me to.