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I hate to break it to you but distribution of tools related to bypassing DRM/technical protection measures (which is what the RIAA takedown letter actually cite

I hate to break it to you but distribution of tools related to bypassing DRM/technical protection measures (which is what the RIAA takedown letter actually cited) is illegal in Switzerland and has been since 2006. Indeed, you can be sent to prison for it with a maximum tariff of a year in prison. https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19920251/index.html#a69a https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19920251/...

arghwhat 6y ago
youtube-dl does not circumvent any protection measures, so hosting it should not be illegal in any country, including Switzerland. The only problem here is the absurdity of how the DMCA and similar works in the US, which allows companies to easily spam invalid claims and require content removed unless the victim puts in the work to prove the claim invalid. And, of course, that legal cases tend to be settled not moral and innocence, but by the lawyers paychecks.
- eznzt 6y ago
  >youtube-dl does not circumvent any protection measures It does.
  - junon 6y ago
    Where? Can you show me the code?
    - eznzt 6y ago
      YouTube uses encrypted signatures as a way of hiding the URL of the video. https://github.com/l1ving/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/extractor/youtube.py#L1205-L1337 https://github.com/l1ving/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/...
      - rwmj 6y ago
        That downloads and runs a web page, the same as your browser does when it visits youtube.com.
      - ttt0 6y ago
        Hey, what's that? https://github.com/l1ving/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/extractor/youtube.py#L1301 https://github.com/l1ving/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/... So if you open devtools in your web browser and go to the Network tab, where you can manually download all audio and video files -- congratulations, your browser just circumvented protection measures, because it interpreted some javascript. I guess we have to take down browsers too now. This is completely retarded.
      - 0x008 6y ago
        I love how that last line of the highlight is line 1337.
      - Rochus 6y ago
        It's like closing the door and hanging the key next to the door for all to see. Definitely not an effective technical measure to protect the house. EDIT: And not to forget that Youtube hosts many CC-BY licensed videos which explicitly allow unlimited use (incl. decryption if necessary), and that Youtube has contracts with copyright collectives in most countries so for any user it is save to assume that the video is legally uploaded (and thus download and store for personal use is legal in most countries).
        Mindwipe 6y ago
        > (and thus download and store for personal use is legal in most countries). That's a highly questionable statement. Certainly, most European countries do not have such a law in all circumstances, and it's dependent on if the personal use copy is made of an asset you are licensed to have permanent access to (which you aren't of a collectively licensed work) or a broadcast for timeshifted purpose (which an on-demand asset isn't).
        6y ago
- dharmab 6y ago
  youtube-dl has circumvention code needed to download copyrighted music from major publishers, which have a slightly different cipher than the rest of the site. They even had integration tests for this code path.
  - ttt0 6y ago
    The alleged "circumvention code" is just a JavaScript interpreter.
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  > youtube-dl does not circumvent any protection measures, so hosting it should not be illegal in any country, including Switzerland. That's a different argument to "Swiss law is different to the US and permits this" though. Bluntly the international treaty wording that is integrated into all national laws is vague enough that I just don't know if what youtube-dl does would be found to trigger it. I certainly wouldn't gamble my own freedom on it. I also wouldn't instruct on it if I were the RIAA tbh. Honestly I suspect if you put it to courts in various territories a hundred times you'd probably find it came out about fifty fifty. It's a badly drafted law, but unfortunately many laws are badly drafted and only clarify themselves through precedent and we don't have enough of that here. > The only problem here is the absurdity of how the DMCA and similar works in the US, which allows companies to easily spam invalid claims and require content removed unless the victim puts in the work to prove the claim invalid. And, of course, that legal cases tend to be settled not moral and innocence, but by the lawyers paychecks. Not especially. Ultimately if you have a free hosting service you shouldn't be especially surprised they're not willing to gamble the literal freedom of their staff for you to go to bat on legal cases. You get what you pay for. The DCMA doesn't have a takedown regime in these circumvention cases, it's just that Github becomes jointly liable when it becomes aware, and have obviously looked at it themselves and decided they are not willing to take the risk. In that regard, the law is pretty similar in the US to pretty much every member country in the world that belongs to WIPO.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    Are you a lawyer? If yes, in which country?
Rochus 6y ago
I don't think youtube-dl violates any of the points in the referenced paragraph. EDIT: also note that it states "effective technological measures" ("Umgehung wirksamer technischer Massnahmen" in German); if there is no (effective) protection measure such as in Youtube then the referenced sanctions obviously don't apply (nulla poena sine lege).
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  Indeed, what is an effective technical protection measure is highly debatable. The only problem is the only likely chance of definitively finding out in your territory is to have a criminal action against you and see if you win in court.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    > the only likely chance of definitively finding out in your territory is to have a criminal action against you and see if you win in court The plaintiffs would have to prove that the videos that can be downloaded with youtube-dl are protected by an objectively effective technical measure and that the tool circumvents this protection, that the accused was aware of the effectiveness of the measure and the illegality of his actions. I studied law at the University of Zurich (Switzerland) and would be calm in face of such a criminal prosecution. The plaintiff's risk of litigation would be considerable and the defendant would have little to fear.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      In Switzerland. youtube-dl was, and still is, hosted in the U.S. And the DMCA is not as lenient as the laws of Switzerland. And on that note, neither are the IP treaties that most Western countries have made with each other, Switzerland included.
      - Rochus 6y ago
        This subthread is about Switzerland, see above. And the action is also on thin ice in the USA. The assumptions on which the takedown is based on are very questionable. I am curious to see how the proceedings that have now been initiated will turn out.

arghwhat 6y ago

youtube-dl does not circumvent any protection measures, so hosting it should not be illegal in any country, including Switzerland. The only problem here is the absurdity of how the DMCA and similar works in the US, which allows companies to easily spam invalid claims and require content removed unless the victim puts in the work to prove the claim invalid. And, of course, that legal cases tend to be settled not moral and innocence, but by the lawyers paychecks.

eznzt 6y ago
>youtube-dl does not circumvent any protection measures It does.
- junon 6y ago
  Where? Can you show me the code?
  - eznzt 6y ago
    YouTube uses encrypted signatures as a way of hiding the URL of the video. https://github.com/l1ving/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/extractor/youtube.py#L1205-L1337 https://github.com/l1ving/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/...
    - rwmj 6y ago
      That downloads and runs a web page, the same as your browser does when it visits youtube.com.
    - ttt0 6y ago
      Hey, what's that? https://github.com/l1ving/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/extractor/youtube.py#L1301 https://github.com/l1ving/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/... So if you open devtools in your web browser and go to the Network tab, where you can manually download all audio and video files -- congratulations, your browser just circumvented protection measures, because it interpreted some javascript. I guess we have to take down browsers too now. This is completely retarded.
    - 0x008 6y ago
      I love how that last line of the highlight is line 1337.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      It's like closing the door and hanging the key next to the door for all to see. Definitely not an effective technical measure to protect the house. EDIT: And not to forget that Youtube hosts many CC-BY licensed videos which explicitly allow unlimited use (incl. decryption if necessary), and that Youtube has contracts with copyright collectives in most countries so for any user it is save to assume that the video is legally uploaded (and thus download and store for personal use is legal in most countries).
      - Mindwipe 6y ago
        > (and thus download and store for personal use is legal in most countries). That's a highly questionable statement. Certainly, most European countries do not have such a law in all circumstances, and it's dependent on if the personal use copy is made of an asset you are licensed to have permanent access to (which you aren't of a collectively licensed work) or a broadcast for timeshifted purpose (which an on-demand asset isn't).
        6y ago
dharmab 6y ago
youtube-dl has circumvention code needed to download copyrighted music from major publishers, which have a slightly different cipher than the rest of the site. They even had integration tests for this code path.
- ttt0 6y ago
  The alleged "circumvention code" is just a JavaScript interpreter.
Mindwipe 6y ago
> youtube-dl does not circumvent any protection measures, so hosting it should not be illegal in any country, including Switzerland. That's a different argument to "Swiss law is different to the US and permits this" though. Bluntly the international treaty wording that is integrated into all national laws is vague enough that I just don't know if what youtube-dl does would be found to trigger it. I certainly wouldn't gamble my own freedom on it. I also wouldn't instruct on it if I were the RIAA tbh. Honestly I suspect if you put it to courts in various territories a hundred times you'd probably find it came out about fifty fifty. It's a badly drafted law, but unfortunately many laws are badly drafted and only clarify themselves through precedent and we don't have enough of that here. > The only problem here is the absurdity of how the DMCA and similar works in the US, which allows companies to easily spam invalid claims and require content removed unless the victim puts in the work to prove the claim invalid. And, of course, that legal cases tend to be settled not moral and innocence, but by the lawyers paychecks. Not especially. Ultimately if you have a free hosting service you shouldn't be especially surprised they're not willing to gamble the literal freedom of their staff for you to go to bat on legal cases. You get what you pay for. The DCMA doesn't have a takedown regime in these circumvention cases, it's just that Github becomes jointly liable when it becomes aware, and have obviously looked at it themselves and decided they are not willing to take the risk. In that regard, the law is pretty similar in the US to pretty much every member country in the world that belongs to WIPO.
- Rochus 6y ago
  Are you a lawyer? If yes, in which country?

Rochus 6y ago

I don't think youtube-dl violates any of the points in the referenced paragraph. EDIT: also note that it states "effective technological measures" ("Umgehung wirksamer technischer Massnahmen" in German); if there is no (effective) protection measure such as in Youtube then the referenced sanctions obviously don't apply (nulla poena sine lege).

Mindwipe 6y ago
Indeed, what is an effective technical protection measure is highly debatable. The only problem is the only likely chance of definitively finding out in your territory is to have a criminal action against you and see if you win in court.
- Rochus 6y ago
  > the only likely chance of definitively finding out in your territory is to have a criminal action against you and see if you win in court The plaintiffs would have to prove that the videos that can be downloaded with youtube-dl are protected by an objectively effective technical measure and that the tool circumvents this protection, that the accused was aware of the effectiveness of the measure and the illegality of his actions. I studied law at the University of Zurich (Switzerland) and would be calm in face of such a criminal prosecution. The plaintiff's risk of litigation would be considerable and the defendant would have little to fear.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    In Switzerland. youtube-dl was, and still is, hosted in the U.S. And the DMCA is not as lenient as the laws of Switzerland. And on that note, neither are the IP treaties that most Western countries have made with each other, Switzerland included.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      This subthread is about Switzerland, see above. And the action is also on thin ice in the USA. The assumptions on which the takedown is based on are very questionable. I am curious to see how the proceedings that have now been initiated will turn out.