6 ms·

Too bad in the Netherlands we are hamstrung by an asinine law that considers a 2-wheel scooter (called a "step" here) to be the same as a 4-wheel cart that carr

by blunte 6y ago

Too bad in the Netherlands we are hamstrung by an asinine law that considers a 2-wheel scooter (called a "step" here) to be the same as a 4-wheel cart that carries children (called a "stint"). This law was prompted by an accident where a person driving children in an electric cart crossed train tracks into the path of an oncoming train, and 4 children were killed. Electric 2-wheel scooters would be perfect for a lot of places in NL - places where there is already a shortage of bike parking, and places where if you park and lock your bike outside, it _will_ be stolen if it is halfway nice. At least with a folding scooter, you can take it inside with you easily. Plus you can take it onto a bus, which is not possible with a bike. Normally the Dutch are pretty thoughtful about their approach to laws, but this one just makes no sense.

Fnoord 6y ago
Though it depends where you are, busses don't have the space to carry a lot of people with foldables. They'd need to be redesigned for such. I saw a Xiaomi foldable e-bike announced the other day for 1k USD, but then I saw this already exists. There's a lot of people driving around on 2-wheel e-bike (non foldable) as well these days. Today I even saw a kid on one going to school.
lumberjack 6y ago
E-bikes are the worst thing on Dutch cycling paths. I experienced them for two years. People speeding irresponsibility on these things going 40kph and practically inaudible. They just zoom past you and you're completely unaware of their presence until the last couple of meters. A big danger to cyclists, moped riders and pedestrians.
- rocgf 6y ago
  There are two types of ebikes, and the law draws a distinction between them. There are pedlecs (25kmph) and s-pedlecs (45kmph). The s-pedlecs have a license plate and are illegal on most cycle lanes. The only place where they would be legally allowed next to regular bicycles/pedlecs would be outside the cities, on the "bike highways".
  - lki876 6y ago
    Unfortunately there is zero enforcement. Either there would have to be a massive amount of police controlling how people drive, or they have to be banned.
    - Vinnl 6y ago
      I don't think I've ever seen the 45km/h version on bicycle paths though. The 25km/h versions have similar problems as described, so I'm guessing they were what was referred to, but they definitely don't go that fast.
      - lki876 6y ago
        Depends where you live I suppose. Some areas are perfectly fine. Mine unfortunately has a lot of social issues.
    - rocgf 6y ago
      I have never seen a speed pedlec on a bike lane inside the city. I can't even remember the last time I saw one in the city generally speaking, as they don't seem to be extremely popular. There used to be a way bigger problem with enforcing of scooters in the bike paths, though that is now way less of an issue, as far as I can tell. The only scooters legally allowed on bike lanes are the ones limited to 25kmph. I still find them dangerous, but considerably less so than how it was a few years back.
- ahoy 6y ago
  NYC has a similar issue of e-bikes (really electric scooters capable of roughly 45kmph/25mph) in bike lanes. It's annoying as a cyclist, but it's still much preferable to having to share space with automobiles.
lki876 6y ago
They should be banned. The vast majority of them drive completely irresponsibly. They go at least twice as fast as the bikes on the bike lanes so they're constantly going in the middle of the lane into oncoming traffic. I've lost track of how many times I've had to swerve on my bike because someone comes right towards me. The Netherlands does not actually have bike lanes. It has shared moped/scooter/bike lanes.
- blunte 6y ago
  I am referring to the little foldable two wheel platform vehicles as scooters. I am not championing the motorcycle things. Outside NL, the "step" is a scooter, and the "scooter" is a moped. Mopeds should be banned from bike paths, or there should be heavy enforcement of speed limits on paths. A little folding 2 wheel platform vehicle going 16kph is certainly no worse than a large Dutchman riding the same speed on a 35kg omafiets... not to mention the person on a 40kg electric bike who is doing 23kph.
  - lki876 6y ago
    > A little folding 2 wheel platform vehicle going 16kph is certainly no worse than a large Dutchman riding the same speed on a 35kg omafiets A light bike doing 16 kph will knock you down but not seriously injure you unless you're unlucky. Mopeds are doing more like 16 mph (25kmh) and easily weigh 70+ kg. That's a fast and heavy chunk of metal. If that hits you, you will be badly injured or killed. That changes the stakes of the bike paths from scraped knees to death or brain injury.
    - blunte 6y ago
      As I have tried to explain throughout my comments, I am referring to what the Dutch call a "step" - like what Bird has been putting in cities around the world. I am absolutely not talking about mopeds (small motorcycles). I very much do not want motorycles or mopeds or even fast electric bikes (which can weigh nearly as much as the rider) on bike paths. A scooter/step weighs about 15kg, and more importantly, most of its weight is very close to the ground. It might knock your feet out from under you if it hit you, but it won't crush your ribs or head unless you're already lying on the ground.
usrusr 6y ago
In the current day and age it might be helpful to explicitly mention the non-electric nature of the scooters you are talking about. I had to re-read everything from the point where you start talking about carrying the thing inside. How about revising law enforcement to a point where property rights don't have a de-facto exception for bicycles? Somehow, enforcement of property rights works quite well (not perfect, but well enough) for just about any property that can be legally stored on public ground, just bicycles are an exception. Thought experiment: steal a bike and steal the equivalent value of that bike in cash and imagine the reactions of executive, judicative when the theft gets noticed. It would almost be as if legislatives had added an "except bikes" paragraph to all laws about property ownership.
- blunte 6y ago
  I tried to explain with the whole step=scooter thing, but clearly I failed. Many of the comments seem to be assuming I am talking about low-end motorcycles. To be clear, however, I was talking about small folding electric inline 2-wheel stand-on devices. As for theft, that's a huge and growing problem with bikes. That's another reason to dissuade me from having a decent bike that would encourage me to commute (although work from home now solves that). A folding bike or 2-wheel step scooter would have worked perfectly for me when I was commuting via foot, train, bus, and then foot each way to and from work.
  - eternauta3k 6y ago
    > As for theft, that's a huge and growing problem with bikes. That's another reason to dissuade me from having a decent bike that would encourage me to commute What expensive features do you need?
    - blunte 6y ago
      Almost half a million bikes were stolen in 2019 in NL, and there are reports of organized groups specifically targeting e-bikes now. But in general, any bike that doesn't look like it could sell for 15 euros on the street is a target. The nicer it looks, the more likely a target. If you're out on the streets often enough at night, you'll inevitably be approached by someone offering to sell you his bike for cheap. Hint: it's not his bike. But the nicer bikes get sent off and sold elsewhere. Most people I know either keep their bike in their house at night, or they just accept the reality and buy old crappy bikes that they won't cry over when they go missing. But the expensive features I would like are a comfy but light saddle, a light but sturdy frame (double butted steel tubing), belt drive, and ideally a small motor/battery combo for times when the wind really sucks. Since you asked. Christmas is coming up soon :).
Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
I thought they were different things. A Stint comes under the 'bijzondere bromfiets' category, the same as a Segway (which remains legal on Dutch roads). Each individual model of vehicle in this category has to be specifically approved by the government for use on the roads. After the 2018 accident (in which the brakes failed for an unknown reason), the Stint lost its specific approval. Officially there wasn't any effect on any other vehicle in the category, though I can imagine that it might have made the government more reluctant to approve new models- no electric folding scooters have yet been approved. In the meantime, I think the best option is a folding bike, electric or otherwise.
- blunte 6y ago
  This is not the only source (at some time several months ago I did more research), but here: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/01/electric-mini-scooters-still-a-long-way-from-the-dutch-roads/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/01/electric-mini-scooters... Folding bike is indeed the best legal option if one wants to ever ride a bus also, but even the nicest ($$$$) folding bikes are so much less portable than a step.
  - Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
    That makes sense- I didn't realise they had tightened the rules after the Stint accident.
timwaagh 6y ago
I doubt we will get used to people taking their vehicles inside. I agree about the law being a bit silly though. Getting run over by a train can happen regardless of your vehicle of transportation.

by blunte 6y ago

Fnoord 6y ago

Though it depends where you are, busses don't have the space to carry a lot of people with foldables. They'd need to be redesigned for such. I saw a Xiaomi foldable e-bike announced the other day for 1k USD, but then I saw this already exists. There's a lot of people driving around on 2-wheel e-bike (non foldable) as well these days. Today I even saw a kid on one going to school.

lumberjack 6y ago

E-bikes are the worst thing on Dutch cycling paths. I experienced them for two years. People speeding irresponsibility on these things going 40kph and practically inaudible. They just zoom past you and you're completely unaware of their presence until the last couple of meters. A big danger to cyclists, moped riders and pedestrians.

rocgf 6y ago
There are two types of ebikes, and the law draws a distinction between them. There are pedlecs (25kmph) and s-pedlecs (45kmph). The s-pedlecs have a license plate and are illegal on most cycle lanes. The only place where they would be legally allowed next to regular bicycles/pedlecs would be outside the cities, on the "bike highways".
- lki876 6y ago
  Unfortunately there is zero enforcement. Either there would have to be a massive amount of police controlling how people drive, or they have to be banned.
  - Vinnl 6y ago
    I don't think I've ever seen the 45km/h version on bicycle paths though. The 25km/h versions have similar problems as described, so I'm guessing they were what was referred to, but they definitely don't go that fast.
    - lki876 6y ago
      Depends where you live I suppose. Some areas are perfectly fine. Mine unfortunately has a lot of social issues.
  - rocgf 6y ago
    I have never seen a speed pedlec on a bike lane inside the city. I can't even remember the last time I saw one in the city generally speaking, as they don't seem to be extremely popular. There used to be a way bigger problem with enforcing of scooters in the bike paths, though that is now way less of an issue, as far as I can tell. The only scooters legally allowed on bike lanes are the ones limited to 25kmph. I still find them dangerous, but considerably less so than how it was a few years back.
ahoy 6y ago
NYC has a similar issue of e-bikes (really electric scooters capable of roughly 45kmph/25mph) in bike lanes. It's annoying as a cyclist, but it's still much preferable to having to share space with automobiles.

lki876 6y ago

They should be banned. The vast majority of them drive completely irresponsibly. They go at least twice as fast as the bikes on the bike lanes so they're constantly going in the middle of the lane into oncoming traffic. I've lost track of how many times I've had to swerve on my bike because someone comes right towards me. The Netherlands does not actually have bike lanes. It has shared moped/scooter/bike lanes.

blunte 6y ago
I am referring to the little foldable two wheel platform vehicles as scooters. I am not championing the motorcycle things. Outside NL, the "step" is a scooter, and the "scooter" is a moped. Mopeds should be banned from bike paths, or there should be heavy enforcement of speed limits on paths. A little folding 2 wheel platform vehicle going 16kph is certainly no worse than a large Dutchman riding the same speed on a 35kg omafiets... not to mention the person on a 40kg electric bike who is doing 23kph.
- lki876 6y ago
  > A little folding 2 wheel platform vehicle going 16kph is certainly no worse than a large Dutchman riding the same speed on a 35kg omafiets A light bike doing 16 kph will knock you down but not seriously injure you unless you're unlucky. Mopeds are doing more like 16 mph (25kmh) and easily weigh 70+ kg. That's a fast and heavy chunk of metal. If that hits you, you will be badly injured or killed. That changes the stakes of the bike paths from scraped knees to death or brain injury.
  - blunte 6y ago
    As I have tried to explain throughout my comments, I am referring to what the Dutch call a "step" - like what Bird has been putting in cities around the world. I am absolutely not talking about mopeds (small motorcycles). I very much do not want motorycles or mopeds or even fast electric bikes (which can weigh nearly as much as the rider) on bike paths. A scooter/step weighs about 15kg, and more importantly, most of its weight is very close to the ground. It might knock your feet out from under you if it hit you, but it won't crush your ribs or head unless you're already lying on the ground.

usrusr 6y ago

In the current day and age it might be helpful to explicitly mention the non-electric nature of the scooters you are talking about. I had to re-read everything from the point where you start talking about carrying the thing inside. How about revising law enforcement to a point where property rights don't have a de-facto exception for bicycles? Somehow, enforcement of property rights works quite well (not perfect, but well enough) for just about any property that can be legally stored on public ground, just bicycles are an exception. Thought experiment: steal a bike and steal the equivalent value of that bike in cash and imagine the reactions of executive, judicative when the theft gets noticed. It would almost be as if legislatives had added an "except bikes" paragraph to all laws about property ownership.

blunte 6y ago
I tried to explain with the whole step=scooter thing, but clearly I failed. Many of the comments seem to be assuming I am talking about low-end motorcycles. To be clear, however, I was talking about small folding electric inline 2-wheel stand-on devices. As for theft, that's a huge and growing problem with bikes. That's another reason to dissuade me from having a decent bike that would encourage me to commute (although work from home now solves that). A folding bike or 2-wheel step scooter would have worked perfectly for me when I was commuting via foot, train, bus, and then foot each way to and from work.
- eternauta3k 6y ago
  > As for theft, that's a huge and growing problem with bikes. That's another reason to dissuade me from having a decent bike that would encourage me to commute What expensive features do you need?
  - blunte 6y ago
    Almost half a million bikes were stolen in 2019 in NL, and there are reports of organized groups specifically targeting e-bikes now. But in general, any bike that doesn't look like it could sell for 15 euros on the street is a target. The nicer it looks, the more likely a target. If you're out on the streets often enough at night, you'll inevitably be approached by someone offering to sell you his bike for cheap. Hint: it's not his bike. But the nicer bikes get sent off and sold elsewhere. Most people I know either keep their bike in their house at night, or they just accept the reality and buy old crappy bikes that they won't cry over when they go missing. But the expensive features I would like are a comfy but light saddle, a light but sturdy frame (double butted steel tubing), belt drive, and ideally a small motor/battery combo for times when the wind really sucks. Since you asked. Christmas is coming up soon :).

Ichthypresbyter 6y ago

I thought they were different things. A Stint comes under the 'bijzondere bromfiets' category, the same as a Segway (which remains legal on Dutch roads). Each individual model of vehicle in this category has to be specifically approved by the government for use on the roads. After the 2018 accident (in which the brakes failed for an unknown reason), the Stint lost its specific approval. Officially there wasn't any effect on any other vehicle in the category, though I can imagine that it might have made the government more reluctant to approve new models- no electric folding scooters have yet been approved. In the meantime, I think the best option is a folding bike, electric or otherwise.

blunte 6y ago
This is not the only source (at some time several months ago I did more research), but here: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/01/electric-mini-scooters-still-a-long-way-from-the-dutch-roads/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/01/electric-mini-scooters... Folding bike is indeed the best legal option if one wants to ever ride a bus also, but even the nicest ($$$$) folding bikes are so much less portable than a step.
- Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
  That makes sense- I didn't realise they had tightened the rules after the Stint accident.

timwaagh 6y ago

I doubt we will get used to people taking their vehicles inside. I agree about the law being a bit silly though. Getting run over by a train can happen regardless of your vehicle of transportation.