5 ms·

Both of them appear to be highly rational people. And I'd wager that the scientific world was already a "winner takes all" competition back then. 1 scientist ra

Both of them appear to be highly rational people. And I'd wager that the scientific world was already a "winner takes all" competition back then. 1 scientist ranking in the worldwide top 10 will likely earn much more than 2 scientists ranking on the top 11-20, because at the extreme, compensation tends to go up exponentially. My understanding of the article is that they were aware and, thus, Mileva made the rational decision to boost her husband's career at the expense of her own career. Albert: "I need my wife. She solves for me all my mathematical problems." Mileva: "Before our departure, we finished an important scientific work which will make my husband known around the world." To me, that sounds like a rational plan to make him famous by letting him pretend to also possess the skills that in reality his wife provides. Plus, we now know in hindsight that it worked. And obviously, a groundbreaking work attributed to only one person seems even more impressive than if it was attributed to a team. EDIT: It also appears to me that Mileva was smart enough to recognize the value of her assistance: "In 1919, she agreed to divorce, with a clause stating that if Albert ever received the Nobel Prize, she would get the money. When she did, she bought two small apartment buildings [..]"

DoreenMichele 6y ago
Karen Blixen (17 April 1885 – 7 September 1962) published her first book under the male pen name Isak Denisen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Blixen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Blixen Colette (28 January 1873 – 3 August 1954) initially ghost wrote for her husband and when they split she ended up dirt poor because he owned all the copyrights in his name and she had no claim to any of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colette These are people from around the same time frame. Sexism was a much bigger problem at that time than it is today and it remains alive and well. Edit: See, for example: Homme de Plume: What I Learned Sending My Novel Out Under a Male Name https://jezebel.com/homme-de-plume-what-i-learned-sending-my-novel-out-und-1720637627 https://jezebel.com/homme-de-plume-what-i-learned-sending-my...
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  I agree with your first 2 examples. But in my opinion, the fact that back then sexism caused strong income differences only makes it even more likely that this was a rationally coordinated team effort by the Einstein's. As for that destroying their marriage, it seems that she got pregnant from another man, while he had multiple affairs, so I wonder if they were ever strongly physically attracted to each other. To me, it seems more likely that they were mentally best friends, but physically craved others. I kind of dislike your Jezebel link because in my opinion, their goal is mostly to spread hate as opposed to improving the situation. So I'd wager that their experiment was skewed to produce the intended result. I mean even the magazine's name is provocation aimed at conservative christian men: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2%3A20&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2%3A... Plus, they haven't been exactly balanced on gender issues in the past ;) "Men are in crisis. The successes of women in the workplace have caused them confusion [..]. They’re becoming radicalized [..] romantic rejection [..] mass murder." https://theattic.jezebel.com/the-paradox-of-how-to-feminism-for-men-1845218608 https://theattic.jezebel.com/the-paradox-of-how-to-feminism-...
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    But in my opinion, the fact that back then sexism caused strong income differences only makes it even more likely that this was a rationally coordinated team effort by the Einstein's. That doesn't contradict anything I've said. If anything, it supports my position. As for that destroying their marriage, it seems that she got pregnant from another man, He married her after she had that child. To my mind that seems to be fairly strong evidence that they had a powerful bond that overcame many obstacles that would have prevented most people from ever even getting married. I don't typically read Jezebel, largely due to the criticisms you cite. But the piece I posted is backed up by data and strikes me as reasonable and even-handed. I don't think it was engineered by the publication. It seems to have been some one off thing by some random female author who got frustrated with her efforts to get published.
    - fxtentacle 6y ago
      I agree that they overcame many obstacles that would have prevented most people from ever even getting married. I also agree that they had a powerful bond. But I would argue that their bond was mostly mental, like friendship. There's usually an age disparity in sexual relationships [1] and I would argue that this is because men in general prefer slightly younger women. The fact that Mileva was born 4 years before Albert already makes their relationship highly uncommon (around 1 out of 30 couples). So maybe Albert married her because she was reliably, intelligent, and had a great character. But that doesn't mean that she had to be in line with his sexual preferences, which then would make it likely that they'll eventually get bored of each other. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relati...
- glitchc 6y ago
  Re Homme de Plume: I wonder what the results would be if she tried being a male from a visible minority.
- wenc 6y ago
  As someone who's interested in writing, I have noticed things changing over the last few decades so I was interested in the how the situation has evolved over time based on data. I dug this up: Bias, She Wrote: The Gender Balance of The New York Times Best Seller list https://pudding.cool/2017/06/best-sellers/ https://pudding.cool/2017/06/best-sellers/ There seems to have been an inflection point in the 1990s, which the author posits is due to the rise of MFA degrees (2/3rds granted to women). Commercially, the gender ratio seems to have approached parity overall, even if in specific categories the large imbalances exists (owing to various factors, some self-selection effect exists). Even though commercial success seems to be at parity, the author posits that the publishing industry lags behind in reflecting this and that there remains a funnel bias in the industry (from critics to publishers).
- goto11 6y ago
  Note that Karen Blixen published the Danish version of the book under her own name. And apparently she used the pen name Tania Blixen in the German versions. I don't know what this says though. She kept using different pen names even after getting famous under her own name.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> Mileva made the rational decision to boost her husband's career at the expense of her own career This is a good explanation for her actions while they were married. But it doesn’t explain why she continued to be withdrawn following their divorce. It could have simply been inertia. But there was likely an element of exhaustion from the sexism referenced elsewhere at play. I don’t think the article’s humility argument sways me. But a combination of your hypothesis for her choice and Doreen’s sexism hypothesis for her sticking with it makes sense.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  Children. She had a sick child who needed constant medical care and had expenses. Being poor might also be a reason for said ‘inertia’. One has to run faster to stay in the same place..chasing someone to retrieve what was stolen from you is unlikely. [..] Mileva moved back to Zurich with her two sons on 29 July 1914. In 1919, she agreed to divorce, with a clause stating that if Albert ever received the Nobel Prize, she would get the money. When she did, she bought two small apartment buildings and lived poorly from their income. Her son, Eduard stayed frequently in a sanatorium. He later developed schizophrenia and was eventually internalised. Due to these medical expenses, Mileva struggled financially all her life and eventually lost both buildings. She survived by giving private lessons and on the alimony Albert sent, albeit irregularly.[..]

DoreenMichele 6y ago

Karen Blixen (17 April 1885 – 7 September 1962) published her first book under the male pen name Isak Denisen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Blixen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Blixen Colette (28 January 1873 – 3 August 1954) initially ghost wrote for her husband and when they split she ended up dirt poor because he owned all the copyrights in his name and she had no claim to any of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colette These are people from around the same time frame. Sexism was a much bigger problem at that time than it is today and it remains alive and well. Edit: See, for example: Homme de Plume: What I Learned Sending My Novel Out Under a Male Name https://jezebel.com/homme-de-plume-what-i-learned-sending-my-novel-out-und-1720637627 https://jezebel.com/homme-de-plume-what-i-learned-sending-my...

fxtentacle 6y ago
I agree with your first 2 examples. But in my opinion, the fact that back then sexism caused strong income differences only makes it even more likely that this was a rationally coordinated team effort by the Einstein's. As for that destroying their marriage, it seems that she got pregnant from another man, while he had multiple affairs, so I wonder if they were ever strongly physically attracted to each other. To me, it seems more likely that they were mentally best friends, but physically craved others. I kind of dislike your Jezebel link because in my opinion, their goal is mostly to spread hate as opposed to improving the situation. So I'd wager that their experiment was skewed to produce the intended result. I mean even the magazine's name is provocation aimed at conservative christian men: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2%3A20&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2%3A... Plus, they haven't been exactly balanced on gender issues in the past ;) "Men are in crisis. The successes of women in the workplace have caused them confusion [..]. They’re becoming radicalized [..] romantic rejection [..] mass murder." https://theattic.jezebel.com/the-paradox-of-how-to-feminism-for-men-1845218608 https://theattic.jezebel.com/the-paradox-of-how-to-feminism-...
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  But in my opinion, the fact that back then sexism caused strong income differences only makes it even more likely that this was a rationally coordinated team effort by the Einstein's. That doesn't contradict anything I've said. If anything, it supports my position. As for that destroying their marriage, it seems that she got pregnant from another man, He married her after she had that child. To my mind that seems to be fairly strong evidence that they had a powerful bond that overcame many obstacles that would have prevented most people from ever even getting married. I don't typically read Jezebel, largely due to the criticisms you cite. But the piece I posted is backed up by data and strikes me as reasonable and even-handed. I don't think it was engineered by the publication. It seems to have been some one off thing by some random female author who got frustrated with her efforts to get published.
  - fxtentacle 6y ago
    I agree that they overcame many obstacles that would have prevented most people from ever even getting married. I also agree that they had a powerful bond. But I would argue that their bond was mostly mental, like friendship. There's usually an age disparity in sexual relationships [1] and I would argue that this is because men in general prefer slightly younger women. The fact that Mileva was born 4 years before Albert already makes their relationship highly uncommon (around 1 out of 30 couples). So maybe Albert married her because she was reliably, intelligent, and had a great character. But that doesn't mean that she had to be in line with his sexual preferences, which then would make it likely that they'll eventually get bored of each other. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relati...
glitchc 6y ago
Re Homme de Plume: I wonder what the results would be if she tried being a male from a visible minority.
wenc 6y ago
As someone who's interested in writing, I have noticed things changing over the last few decades so I was interested in the how the situation has evolved over time based on data. I dug this up: Bias, She Wrote: The Gender Balance of The New York Times Best Seller list https://pudding.cool/2017/06/best-sellers/ https://pudding.cool/2017/06/best-sellers/ There seems to have been an inflection point in the 1990s, which the author posits is due to the rise of MFA degrees (2/3rds granted to women). Commercially, the gender ratio seems to have approached parity overall, even if in specific categories the large imbalances exists (owing to various factors, some self-selection effect exists). Even though commercial success seems to be at parity, the author posits that the publishing industry lags behind in reflecting this and that there remains a funnel bias in the industry (from critics to publishers).
goto11 6y ago
Note that Karen Blixen published the Danish version of the book under her own name. And apparently she used the pen name Tania Blixen in the German versions. I don't know what this says though. She kept using different pen names even after getting famous under her own name.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> Mileva made the rational decision to boost her husband's career at the expense of her own career This is a good explanation for her actions while they were married. But it doesn’t explain why she continued to be withdrawn following their divorce. It could have simply been inertia. But there was likely an element of exhaustion from the sexism referenced elsewhere at play. I don’t think the article’s humility argument sways me. But a combination of your hypothesis for her choice and Doreen’s sexism hypothesis for her sticking with it makes sense.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago
Children. She had a sick child who needed constant medical care and had expenses. Being poor might also be a reason for said ‘inertia’. One has to run faster to stay in the same place..chasing someone to retrieve what was stolen from you is unlikely. [..] Mileva moved back to Zurich with her two sons on 29 July 1914. In 1919, she agreed to divorce, with a clause stating that if Albert ever received the Nobel Prize, she would get the money. When she did, she bought two small apartment buildings and lived poorly from their income. Her son, Eduard stayed frequently in a sanatorium. He later developed schizophrenia and was eventually internalised. Due to these medical expenses, Mileva struggled financially all her life and eventually lost both buildings. She survived by giving private lessons and on the alimony Albert sent, albeit irregularly.[..]