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Unions don't just negotiate salaries. They assure rights aren't being violated, promote ethical, safe and healthy workplaces, prevent and fight against discrimi

Unions don't just negotiate salaries. They assure rights aren't being violated, promote ethical, safe and healthy workplaces, prevent and fight against discrimination and unfair treatment, fight wrongful dismissal, etc.

seibelj 6y ago
Will your imagined Union require all employees with the same title to be paid identically, restrict promotions to people based on years of tenure, and require layoffs to fire the newest hires first regardless of skill? Because that is a large part of what unions do in factories, trades, and teachers. Unions remove the ability of talented individuals to rise faster, while also disallowing and restricting management’s ability to select who they want to promote and retain.
- notRobot 6y ago
  That has not been my experience with unions, but I have never worked in the US, so it might be different there. In most countries where I've worked (Europe and Asia), unions have been nothing but beneficial.
  - qznc 6y ago
    Working in Germany in IGM pay scale, I do see these effects here. However, you can spin it positively as well. For example, firing young ones first is done because for people nearing retirement finding a new job is harder. Overall, the system is more "socially minded" with the tradeoff that disruptions are slowed down.
    - seibelj 6y ago
      Like anything, I prefer choice. So if some software shops want to unionize, great. But I want the ability to join a company and not join the union, or failing that, be able to join non-unionized companies. If the goal is to force all software engineers to unionize, and then forcibly prohibit all non-unionized people from working in software, it's simply coercion and I absolutely cannot support it.
- wsh 6y ago
  It’s not always that way: in the entertainment industry, for example, union contracts often set only the minimum wage scales and working conditions and leave individual workers (or their agents) free to negotiate for anything better.

seibelj 6y ago

Will your imagined Union require all employees with the same title to be paid identically, restrict promotions to people based on years of tenure, and require layoffs to fire the newest hires first regardless of skill? Because that is a large part of what unions do in factories, trades, and teachers. Unions remove the ability of talented individuals to rise faster, while also disallowing and restricting management’s ability to select who they want to promote and retain.

notRobot 6y ago
That has not been my experience with unions, but I have never worked in the US, so it might be different there. In most countries where I've worked (Europe and Asia), unions have been nothing but beneficial.
- qznc 6y ago
  Working in Germany in IGM pay scale, I do see these effects here. However, you can spin it positively as well. For example, firing young ones first is done because for people nearing retirement finding a new job is harder. Overall, the system is more "socially minded" with the tradeoff that disruptions are slowed down.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    Like anything, I prefer choice. So if some software shops want to unionize, great. But I want the ability to join a company and not join the union, or failing that, be able to join non-unionized companies. If the goal is to force all software engineers to unionize, and then forcibly prohibit all non-unionized people from working in software, it's simply coercion and I absolutely cannot support it.
wsh 6y ago
It’s not always that way: in the entertainment industry, for example, union contracts often set only the minimum wage scales and working conditions and leave individual workers (or their agents) free to negotiate for anything better.