5 ms·

> upper middle-class are the most conservative elements of any society This very clearly is not the case in the US.

AlexandrB 6y ago
What? It's absolutely true in the US > But among the 64% of American voters who earn more than $50,000 a year, 49% chose Trump, and 47% Clinton. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/09/white-voters-victory-donald-trump-exit-polls https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/09/white-voters...
- KMag 6y ago
  I agree with the general sentiment, but Trump is a very poor yardstick for conservative political beliefs. Out of Reagan, both Bushes, McCain, Romney, and Trump, Trump is the clear outlier.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    You're right that Trump is not necessarily representative of other Republicans. But I think the skew is actually the opposite direction of what you're saying. I think Trump is actually less likely to be favored by wealthy people vs say Bush. Look at this polling of support of Bush vs Kerry by income level[1], as income rises support for Bush almost always rises, and support for Kerry almost always decreases. [1] https://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html https://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/...
    - KMag 6y ago
      I didn't mean to suggest anything about the directionality of the skew, just to mention he's not a classical conservative and there's likely some skew between supporting Trump and having conservative political leanings. (On a side note, there's some smaller skew between voting Republican and having conservative political leanings. I'm conservative in fiscal policy, foreign policy, and favoring action at a local and state level, but liberal regarding most social policies, criminal justice reform, and environmental regulation. I think government enforced price transparency plus a German-style universal healthcare system via private insurance decoupled from employment is preferable to either a US model or a Canadian/UK-style single payer system. I've always registered as a Democrat.)
- pessimizer 6y ago
  And both Clinton and Biden are very conservative candidates, by any reasonable standard.
  - counterpoint1 6y ago
    God I wish this trope would die. All the political terms - left, right, conservative, progressive, liberal, etc have definitions which vary greatly from country-to-country, over time, and by which group is using them. Clinton and Biden are representatives from American's dominant liberal party and represent views which are left-of-center when you do the sane thing and define center as "median voter in the country being discussed" and not "my group of friends" or whatever time or place you're imagining. You might as well say 'Bill Gates is very poor, by any reasonable standard' (because unlike the rich people of 2,000 years ago, he can't raise an army that rivals that of his home nation-state or the rich of the future who take vacations on the moon).
    - Spivak 6y ago
      I think the parent means that both Clinton and Biden are establishment candidates. Neither of the are boat rockers like Bernie or Trump in 2016. I think the reality of Trump’s presidency is far more establishment than his original campaign but still. Liberal & Conservative in the US usually have to do with what changes a person wants to make but Clinton, Romney, Obama, Biden, hell Bush are all literally conservative in the scope and amount.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      I wish you would not refer to arguments that you disagree with as tropes, it's a thought terminating cliché. Clinton ran on "America is already great" and Biden is running on a "return to normality" ticket under which "nothing will fundamentally change." The Clintons were the center of the DLC, who assassinated the candidacy of Jessie Jackson to bring on an era in which the Democrats would "End Welfare As We Know It," sign the crime bill, and deregulate everything. Biden got into politics as a New England Dixiecrat, of the kind that was extremely popular around Boston when white children there were threatened with being exposed to black children in school. His VP is a prosecutor who bragged about jailing the parents of truant children. Both supported the Iraq War. Biden championed the crime bill that was passed under a Clinton administration. Yes, they wouldn't be conservative for Saudi Arabia, but they would both continue to closely ally us with the Saudis and aid them in murdering Yemenis. > center as "median voter in the country being discussed Both Biden and Clinton, issue by issue, are well to the right of the median US citizen. It's pretty dishonest to restrict the people allowed to have their opinions considered to the people who thought that the distinction between Republican and Democratic administrations was important, when the argument being made is about whether both candidates are conservative. The median eligible voter is barely more likely to vote than not. I know typing this is a waste of time.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
kaitai 6y ago
I think that conservative means "in support of a (certain kind of) status quo" in this case, rather than the American line-up of hot-button culture war issues. The upper middle-class wants stability, whatever it is, because of the structure of their income stream. That's why upper middle class people are basically centrists and don't want to rock the boat too much: they're doing very well in the boat, and rocking it will have them taking on water. Other folks have much less to lose (which we should all remember over the next month).
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  Why do these points not apply to the upper class? I would expect them to be at least as conservative as the upper middle class, and all of these arguments fail to distinguish the groups. But the claim is that the upper-middle class is more conservative than the upper class. That's... weird?
  - username90 6y ago
    Example: Upper middle class wants to limit immigration since it hurts their salaries. Upper class wants more immigration to get cheap labor into the country.

What? It's absolutely true in the US > But among the 64% of American voters who earn more than $50,000 a year, 49% chose Trump, and 47% Clinton. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/09/white-voters-victory-donald-trump-exit-polls https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/09/white-voters...

KMag 6y ago
I agree with the general sentiment, but Trump is a very poor yardstick for conservative political beliefs. Out of Reagan, both Bushes, McCain, Romney, and Trump, Trump is the clear outlier.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  You're right that Trump is not necessarily representative of other Republicans. But I think the skew is actually the opposite direction of what you're saying. I think Trump is actually less likely to be favored by wealthy people vs say Bush. Look at this polling of support of Bush vs Kerry by income level[1], as income rises support for Bush almost always rises, and support for Kerry almost always decreases. [1] https://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html https://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/...
  - KMag 6y ago
    I didn't mean to suggest anything about the directionality of the skew, just to mention he's not a classical conservative and there's likely some skew between supporting Trump and having conservative political leanings. (On a side note, there's some smaller skew between voting Republican and having conservative political leanings. I'm conservative in fiscal policy, foreign policy, and favoring action at a local and state level, but liberal regarding most social policies, criminal justice reform, and environmental regulation. I think government enforced price transparency plus a German-style universal healthcare system via private insurance decoupled from employment is preferable to either a US model or a Canadian/UK-style single payer system. I've always registered as a Democrat.)
pessimizer 6y ago
And both Clinton and Biden are very conservative candidates, by any reasonable standard.
- counterpoint1 6y ago
  God I wish this trope would die. All the political terms - left, right, conservative, progressive, liberal, etc have definitions which vary greatly from country-to-country, over time, and by which group is using them. Clinton and Biden are representatives from American's dominant liberal party and represent views which are left-of-center when you do the sane thing and define center as "median voter in the country being discussed" and not "my group of friends" or whatever time or place you're imagining. You might as well say 'Bill Gates is very poor, by any reasonable standard' (because unlike the rich people of 2,000 years ago, he can't raise an army that rivals that of his home nation-state or the rich of the future who take vacations on the moon).
  - Spivak 6y ago
    I think the parent means that both Clinton and Biden are establishment candidates. Neither of the are boat rockers like Bernie or Trump in 2016. I think the reality of Trump’s presidency is far more establishment than his original campaign but still. Liberal & Conservative in the US usually have to do with what changes a person wants to make but Clinton, Romney, Obama, Biden, hell Bush are all literally conservative in the scope and amount.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    I wish you would not refer to arguments that you disagree with as tropes, it's a thought terminating cliché. Clinton ran on "America is already great" and Biden is running on a "return to normality" ticket under which "nothing will fundamentally change." The Clintons were the center of the DLC, who assassinated the candidacy of Jessie Jackson to bring on an era in which the Democrats would "End Welfare As We Know It," sign the crime bill, and deregulate everything. Biden got into politics as a New England Dixiecrat, of the kind that was extremely popular around Boston when white children there were threatened with being exposed to black children in school. His VP is a prosecutor who bragged about jailing the parents of truant children. Both supported the Iraq War. Biden championed the crime bill that was passed under a Clinton administration. Yes, they wouldn't be conservative for Saudi Arabia, but they would both continue to closely ally us with the Saudis and aid them in murdering Yemenis. > center as "median voter in the country being discussed Both Biden and Clinton, issue by issue, are well to the right of the median US citizen. It's pretty dishonest to restrict the people allowed to have their opinions considered to the people who thought that the distinction between Republican and Democratic administrations was important, when the argument being made is about whether both candidates are conservative. The median eligible voter is barely more likely to vote than not. I know typing this is a waste of time.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

kaitai 6y ago

I think that conservative means "in support of a (certain kind of) status quo" in this case, rather than the American line-up of hot-button culture war issues. The upper middle-class wants stability, whatever it is, because of the structure of their income stream. That's why upper middle class people are basically centrists and don't want to rock the boat too much: they're doing very well in the boat, and rocking it will have them taking on water. Other folks have much less to lose (which we should all remember over the next month).

thaumasiotes 6y ago
Why do these points not apply to the upper class? I would expect them to be at least as conservative as the upper middle class, and all of these arguments fail to distinguish the groups. But the claim is that the upper-middle class is more conservative than the upper class. That's... weird?
- username90 6y ago
  Example: Upper middle class wants to limit immigration since it hurts their salaries. Upper class wants more immigration to get cheap labor into the country.