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Left vs. Right is not the right juxtaposition. Rather it should be Authoritarianism vs. Democracy. Authoritarianism denies objective science while Democracy can

Left vs. Right is not the right juxtaposition. Rather it should be Authoritarianism vs. Democracy. Authoritarianism denies objective science while Democracy can only exist with it. Authoritarianism doesn't count the votes correctly because it is opposed to democracy in the first place.

danoloan 6y ago
Republican Spain had quite the Authoritarian cut at the time. The radical left was pretty much willing to purge anyone that was anything to their right, and they were the strongarm of the Republic.
- ozborn 6y ago
  The radical left in Spain (including even the Anarchists who were a significant poltical force at the time) supported the Republican government. The purges that took place on the left, were the purge of the POUM (Trotskyist, the group Orwell fought with) and then the CNT-FAI (anarchist) by the Communist party (Stalin/USSR). Both purged groups were considered to be to the Left of Stalin by all sides in the conflict, the purged groups certainly were definitely less authoritarian.
  - danoloan 6y ago
    i was talking more about things like the "paseos". https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paseo_(fusilamiento) https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paseo_(fusilamiento) surely the purging of the right wing was not that big in numbers, given that most of it was in the other side of the war.
- dmurray 6y ago
  The incumbents always look more authoritarian than the revolutionaries, who are by definition trying to overthrow some of the institutions that the first guys control. I think you're correct that with the right interpretation of history, either side could be made to look like the authoritarians.
baybal2 6y ago
Famous quote: votes don't matter, what matters is who counts them.
blix 6y ago
> Authoritarianism denies objective science while Democracy can only exist with it. Does this mean China, which leads the world in published scientific papers, is the model democracy? What about the Soviet Union, which definitely assigned a lot of value to objective science? I feel these axes are mostly orthogonal. The modern ideals of science and democracy arose at about the same time but they are hardly inseparable.
- nemo44x 6y ago
  Exactly right - a fascist or reactionary government could indeed be driven by objective science and even more so than any democracy today. Democracy doesn’t really have to rely on objective science. In our form today in fact it rather doesn’t in many ways. And in fact calls many things “science” which aren’t at all.
- efa 6y ago
  Yeah, I'm not sure how science is ascribed to either end of the spectrum. Nazi Germany also had some damn good scientist who they looked to to give them dominance on the world stage. I'm guessing he's trying to stamp Trump as an authoritarian given his supposed anti-science views.
- NumberCruncher 6y ago
  > ...China, which leads the world in published scientific papers... Try to publish in China a scientific paper with real COVID numbers and you will see how democratic the country is. > ...the Soviet Union, which definitely assigned a lot of value to objective science... Unless the objective science throw a threw a bad light on the soviet system in which case science was dismissed. Just take a look at the story behind Chernobyl. You won't find objectivity in a totalitarian system.
  - blix 6y ago
    Are you meaning to imply that no democracy has ever tried to suppress information that was unfavorable to it? I think you simply won't find objectivity in politics.
Ericson2314 6y ago
While the Nolan Chart post-dates Orwell, he definitely understood the non-1-dimensional nature of the thing. (See how the essay doesn't speak highly of Britain or the USSR.) I don't think he would have liked your replacement of 1 axis with another.

danoloan 6y ago

Republican Spain had quite the Authoritarian cut at the time. The radical left was pretty much willing to purge anyone that was anything to their right, and they were the strongarm of the Republic.

ozborn 6y ago
The radical left in Spain (including even the Anarchists who were a significant poltical force at the time) supported the Republican government. The purges that took place on the left, were the purge of the POUM (Trotskyist, the group Orwell fought with) and then the CNT-FAI (anarchist) by the Communist party (Stalin/USSR). Both purged groups were considered to be to the Left of Stalin by all sides in the conflict, the purged groups certainly were definitely less authoritarian.
- danoloan 6y ago
  i was talking more about things like the "paseos". https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paseo_(fusilamiento) https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paseo_(fusilamiento) surely the purging of the right wing was not that big in numbers, given that most of it was in the other side of the war.
dmurray 6y ago
The incumbents always look more authoritarian than the revolutionaries, who are by definition trying to overthrow some of the institutions that the first guys control. I think you're correct that with the right interpretation of history, either side could be made to look like the authoritarians.

baybal2 6y ago

Famous quote: votes don't matter, what matters is who counts them.

blix 6y ago

> Authoritarianism denies objective science while Democracy can only exist with it. Does this mean China, which leads the world in published scientific papers, is the model democracy? What about the Soviet Union, which definitely assigned a lot of value to objective science? I feel these axes are mostly orthogonal. The modern ideals of science and democracy arose at about the same time but they are hardly inseparable.

nemo44x 6y ago
Exactly right - a fascist or reactionary government could indeed be driven by objective science and even more so than any democracy today. Democracy doesn’t really have to rely on objective science. In our form today in fact it rather doesn’t in many ways. And in fact calls many things “science” which aren’t at all.
efa 6y ago
Yeah, I'm not sure how science is ascribed to either end of the spectrum. Nazi Germany also had some damn good scientist who they looked to to give them dominance on the world stage. I'm guessing he's trying to stamp Trump as an authoritarian given his supposed anti-science views.
NumberCruncher 6y ago
> ...China, which leads the world in published scientific papers... Try to publish in China a scientific paper with real COVID numbers and you will see how democratic the country is. > ...the Soviet Union, which definitely assigned a lot of value to objective science... Unless the objective science throw a threw a bad light on the soviet system in which case science was dismissed. Just take a look at the story behind Chernobyl. You won't find objectivity in a totalitarian system.
- blix 6y ago
  Are you meaning to imply that no democracy has ever tried to suppress information that was unfavorable to it? I think you simply won't find objectivity in politics.

Ericson2314 6y ago

While the Nolan Chart post-dates Orwell, he definitely understood the non-1-dimensional nature of the thing. (See how the essay doesn't speak highly of Britain or the USSR.) I don't think he would have liked your replacement of 1 axis with another.