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Thank you for a high-quality source! I am surprised to learn that phala “fruit” has Proto-Dravidian origins, it is used quite frequently in Sanskrit shlokas in

Thank you for a high-quality source! I am surprised to learn that phala “fruit” has Proto-Dravidian origins, it is used quite frequently in Sanskrit shlokas in both the literal and figurative (“reward”) senses. Even though the link seems to imply that it's more Elamitic than Dravidian, the case of Brahui [1] is very interesting as an instance of a Dravidian-linked language that's very different in origin from its geographical neighbors. ---------------------------------------------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_language

dilippkumar 6y ago
You might be interested in David McAlpin’s 2015 paper about Brahui, Elamite and Proto-Dravidian [0]. Some context: Brahui is a language spoken in Pakistan that’s been a bit of a mystery till David McAlpin solved it with the proto-zagrosian hypothesis. Brahui clearly looks like related to Dravidian, but didn’t fit into proto-dravidian or any reconstructed daughter languages of proto-dravidian. Simultaneously, the ancient language of Elamite looks a lot like Dravidian. (sidenote: there are cuneiform tablets written in elamite! Elam shows up prominently in the fall of Nineveh, the capital city of the super power of that era!) The problem was chronology- Brahui is clearly older than the later descendants of Proto-Dravidian. Elamite is far older than the descendants of Proto-Dravidian. The question was how these two languages fit into the Dravidian family tree. McAlpin’s 2015 hypothesis answers this question with a surprising and elegant idea: What if Brahui is related to Elamite instead of Dravidian? He found that the pieces fit really well when you treat Elamite and Brahui as sibling languages descended from a parent language: Proto-Elamite. Next, he finds that Proto-Elamite and Proto-Dravidian cleanly fit as siblings descended from a mother language that he calls Proto-Zagrosian. I’m not a linguist and I don’t know how well accepted this idea is among academic circles - but looking at this from outside, it seems to be a fairly well respected idea that’s being seriously considered by some academics. PS: I did a google search for Proto-Zagrosian and the second result was my own comment on HN from a long time ago. I really wish there was more people writing/blogging about this. [0]. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=proto+zagrosian+hypothesis&oq=proto+zagrosian+hypoth#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DksuxNJyhuWcJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=prot...
- quadrifoliate 6y ago
  That is interesting indeed! I skimmed over the paper, although most of it is too dense for me to understand. A proven connection between Dravidian and Elamite would kind of upend most perceived ideas in India about Dravidian versus Indo-European languages (namely, that Dravidian ones are more indigenous than Indo-European). Also, this is very likely just a coincidence, but I realized that the Tamil word for homeland is...Eelam [1]. ------------------------------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eelam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eelam
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    I thought that Southworth and McAlpin were kind of out there on their own with this hypothesis.

dilippkumar 6y ago

You might be interested in David McAlpin’s 2015 paper about Brahui, Elamite and Proto-Dravidian [0]. Some context: Brahui is a language spoken in Pakistan that’s been a bit of a mystery till David McAlpin solved it with the proto-zagrosian hypothesis. Brahui clearly looks like related to Dravidian, but didn’t fit into proto-dravidian or any reconstructed daughter languages of proto-dravidian. Simultaneously, the ancient language of Elamite looks a lot like Dravidian. (sidenote: there are cuneiform tablets written in elamite! Elam shows up prominently in the fall of Nineveh, the capital city of the super power of that era!) The problem was chronology- Brahui is clearly older than the later descendants of Proto-Dravidian. Elamite is far older than the descendants of Proto-Dravidian. The question was how these two languages fit into the Dravidian family tree. McAlpin’s 2015 hypothesis answers this question with a surprising and elegant idea: What if Brahui is related to Elamite instead of Dravidian? He found that the pieces fit really well when you treat Elamite and Brahui as sibling languages descended from a parent language: Proto-Elamite. Next, he finds that Proto-Elamite and Proto-Dravidian cleanly fit as siblings descended from a mother language that he calls Proto-Zagrosian. I’m not a linguist and I don’t know how well accepted this idea is among academic circles - but looking at this from outside, it seems to be a fairly well respected idea that’s being seriously considered by some academics. PS: I did a google search for Proto-Zagrosian and the second result was my own comment on HN from a long time ago. I really wish there was more people writing/blogging about this. [0]. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=proto+zagrosian+hypothesis&oq=proto+zagrosian+hypoth#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DksuxNJyhuWcJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=prot...

quadrifoliate 6y ago
That is interesting indeed! I skimmed over the paper, although most of it is too dense for me to understand. A proven connection between Dravidian and Elamite would kind of upend most perceived ideas in India about Dravidian versus Indo-European languages (namely, that Dravidian ones are more indigenous than Indo-European). Also, this is very likely just a coincidence, but I realized that the Tamil word for homeland is...Eelam [1]. ------------------------------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eelam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eelam
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  I thought that Southworth and McAlpin were kind of out there on their own with this hypothesis.