5 ms·

The notion of an 'old language' is weird. What does that even mean? Why is Bo one of the oldest languages? Is Greek old? Is English old? Is Lithuanian old? Is T

The notion of an 'old language' is weird. What does that even mean? Why is Bo one of the oldest languages? Is Greek old? Is English old? Is Lithuanian old? Is Tamil old? Korean? Chinese (which one?)? Any language? If your answer is 'yes', then (a) please explain what you mean, and (b) rest assured that it is not the same language today as when it was 'young' (whatever that means) -- 'young X' is probably a different language than 'old X', but what does that mean for 'X'? I don't get it. Such a weird notion. It seems to me that 'old' for a language is often used to imply that it is 'important' (culturally? presumably yes.), which feels, well, not racist, but maybe 'linguist' -- OK, that word is already occupied... Even fighting exists about which language is 'oldest' -- could you please make up the rules of the game before playing? Anyway -- this is just me not understanding what people mean.

LudwigNagasena 6y ago
I hate that it is trendy nowadays to claim that everything is racist. It is just ignorance.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  People reuse old words for concepts that don't have their own names. Racism is the most common word for "using pseudoscience to give one group higher status than another"
yorwba 6y ago
I think what people who talk about "old languages" use to determine a language's age is something like "what's the earliest date an ancestor of this language was used in writing" or "how long has this area been inhabited by populations genetically similar to modern speakers of this language". Personally, I think most languages are old, except for constructed languages like Toki Pona that have only existed for a short time.
ponker 6y ago
Well very old languages like Tamil have a very ancient person with whom a modern speaker could have a mutually intelligible conversation. An English speaker could not speak English with someone from 1000 years ago but a Tamil speaker could.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  How is that measured?
  - ponker 6y ago
    Well measuring it exactly is impossible but relatively is easy. For example Tamil has been much more static than Greek which has been much more static than English over the last 1000 years.
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      Static how? Obviously there is no ancient audio. Is ancient Tamil writing readable by modern Tamil readers?
      - ponker 6y ago
        Yes
      - guruparan18 6y ago
        Written scripts have used to change all over time. It is not possible to read at the get go, but after some practice, yes, any one can read old Tamil. Given that about ~55% [1] of written inscription are from Tamil, it is one of the proficient. How do you measure the language change [2]? There are several approaches, the one I remember reading about is, you fetch the most basic kernel of a language, like very simple key words (like relations, food, feelings and so on) for about 100 words and then see how many of those words have changed since say last 10 years, last 50 years and 100 years and so on. You try going back as long as you can and you loose few words from 100 words you started, that's you delta. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Indian_epigraphy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Indian_epigraphy 2. https://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Fall_2003/ling001/language_change.html https://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Fall_2003/ling001/languag...
        yorwba 6y ago
        > It is not possible to read at the get go, but after some practice, yes, any one can read old Tamil. The "after some practice" makes this a bit of a squishy claim. For example, Malayalam and Tamil split less than 1000 years ago and are both descendants of Old Tamil. I would be surprised if "after some practice" a Malayalam speaker couldn't also read Old Tamil, or for that matter Modern Tamil (and vice versa for a Modern Tamil speaker learning Malayalam). So is Tamil somehow older than Malayalam? I think not.
naruvimama 6y ago
As the article says pre-neolithic, if you are not aware Andaman is also home to the sentinelese, a known isolated and uncontacted tribe who have preserved their way of life for 60,000 years of isolation. Oldest language could be a distinct language that has preserved its uniqueness. Due to the ice age, European languages can not be the oldest. The isolation of these tribes and the long human habitation in these regions could make the languages some of the oldest as well as primitive.
- marc_abonce 6y ago
  > the sentinelese, a known isolated and uncontacted tribe who have preserved their way of life for 60,000 years of isolation. I don't think they have actually been isolated for 60,000 years though. If I understand correctly, they chose to isolate in the 1800's because the British were kidnapping people. Before that they had contact with other Andaman islanders at least. For example, apparently the Sentinelese may speak a language of the Ongan family[1], which would mean that their language most likely diverged sometime within the last millennium or two, I think. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongan_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongan_languages
furyroad 6y ago
Thirukural[1] is a classic Tamil text on philosophy and secular ethics, which is considered to be at-least 1500 years old. Many verses of this text can be easily read and understood by anyone with intermediate level proficiency in Tamil. And so are most text from Sangam literature[2], which are even older. Thiruvasagam[3] and other Bakthi literature are widely used as a prayer hymns and can be understood with basic language training. Tamil has two forms. Sentamil and Koduntamil, both survived till date. Sentamil is the formal/literary form and Koduntamil is the colloquial form used by common people. Koduntamil is made of simplified and shortened forms of words from Sentamil, some loan words and slang words. Due to the cultural and political influences in the last few centuries, there are many loan words from European and Persian languages in Koduntamil. Other Dravidian languages[4] such as Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada has heavy influence of Sanskrit. There were efforts to Sankritise Tamil as well by using Sankrit words in Tamil syntax, which was called Manipravalam. Manipravalam was in use till early 20th century. In the beginning of 20th century, Tanittamil Iyakkam[5] aka Pure Tamil Movement restored the language and Maripravalam is no more in use. The formal Tamil used today, such as in news bulletins and official documents, is very close to the classical form. Pure Tamil Movement, the two language policy[6] adopted by Tamil Nadu government and related efforts helped preserve the language. Although the Tamil speaking population is lesser compared to other languages such as Hindi and Telugu, Tamil has a thriving art, literature and media industry which are economically successful too. Recent archeological research at Keezhadi has revealed a 6th century BCE Sangam era settlement in Vaigai river valley[7]. If more research confirms the findings, Tamil would be one among the oldest surviving classical languages. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirukku%E1%B9%9Fa%E1%B8%B7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirukku%E1%B9%9Fa%E1%B8%B7 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangam_literature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangam_literature [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiruvasagam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiruvasagam [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanittamil_Iyakkam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanittamil_Iyakkam [6] https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/policy-lessons-in-tamil-nadus-language-formula/article32537622.ece https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/policy-lessons-in-tami... [7] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/keeladi-findings-traceable-to-6th-century-bce-report/article29461583.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/keeladi-fi...

LudwigNagasena 6y ago

I hate that it is trendy nowadays to claim that everything is racist. It is just ignorance.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
People reuse old words for concepts that don't have their own names. Racism is the most common word for "using pseudoscience to give one group higher status than another"

yorwba 6y ago

I think what people who talk about "old languages" use to determine a language's age is something like "what's the earliest date an ancestor of this language was used in writing" or "how long has this area been inhabited by populations genetically similar to modern speakers of this language". Personally, I think most languages are old, except for constructed languages like Toki Pona that have only existed for a short time.

ponker 6y ago

Well very old languages like Tamil have a very ancient person with whom a modern speaker could have a mutually intelligible conversation. An English speaker could not speak English with someone from 1000 years ago but a Tamil speaker could.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
How is that measured?
- ponker 6y ago
  Well measuring it exactly is impossible but relatively is easy. For example Tamil has been much more static than Greek which has been much more static than English over the last 1000 years.
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    Static how? Obviously there is no ancient audio. Is ancient Tamil writing readable by modern Tamil readers?
    - ponker 6y ago
      Yes
    - guruparan18 6y ago
      Written scripts have used to change all over time. It is not possible to read at the get go, but after some practice, yes, any one can read old Tamil. Given that about ~55% [1] of written inscription are from Tamil, it is one of the proficient. How do you measure the language change [2]? There are several approaches, the one I remember reading about is, you fetch the most basic kernel of a language, like very simple key words (like relations, food, feelings and so on) for about 100 words and then see how many of those words have changed since say last 10 years, last 50 years and 100 years and so on. You try going back as long as you can and you loose few words from 100 words you started, that's you delta. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Indian_epigraphy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Indian_epigraphy 2. https://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Fall_2003/ling001/language_change.html https://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Fall_2003/ling001/languag...
      - yorwba 6y ago
        > It is not possible to read at the get go, but after some practice, yes, any one can read old Tamil. The "after some practice" makes this a bit of a squishy claim. For example, Malayalam and Tamil split less than 1000 years ago and are both descendants of Old Tamil. I would be surprised if "after some practice" a Malayalam speaker couldn't also read Old Tamil, or for that matter Modern Tamil (and vice versa for a Modern Tamil speaker learning Malayalam). So is Tamil somehow older than Malayalam? I think not.

naruvimama 6y ago

As the article says pre-neolithic, if you are not aware Andaman is also home to the sentinelese, a known isolated and uncontacted tribe who have preserved their way of life for 60,000 years of isolation. Oldest language could be a distinct language that has preserved its uniqueness. Due to the ice age, European languages can not be the oldest. The isolation of these tribes and the long human habitation in these regions could make the languages some of the oldest as well as primitive.

marc_abonce 6y ago
> the sentinelese, a known isolated and uncontacted tribe who have preserved their way of life for 60,000 years of isolation. I don't think they have actually been isolated for 60,000 years though. If I understand correctly, they chose to isolate in the 1800's because the British were kidnapping people. Before that they had contact with other Andaman islanders at least. For example, apparently the Sentinelese may speak a language of the Ongan family[1], which would mean that their language most likely diverged sometime within the last millennium or two, I think. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongan_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongan_languages

furyroad 6y ago

Thirukural[1] is a classic Tamil text on philosophy and secular ethics, which is considered to be at-least 1500 years old. Many verses of this text can be easily read and understood by anyone with intermediate level proficiency in Tamil. And so are most text from Sangam literature[2], which are even older. Thiruvasagam[3] and other Bakthi literature are widely used as a prayer hymns and can be understood with basic language training. Tamil has two forms. Sentamil and Koduntamil, both survived till date. Sentamil is the formal/literary form and Koduntamil is the colloquial form used by common people. Koduntamil is made of simplified and shortened forms of words from Sentamil, some loan words and slang words. Due to the cultural and political influences in the last few centuries, there are many loan words from European and Persian languages in Koduntamil. Other Dravidian languages[4] such as Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada has heavy influence of Sanskrit. There were efforts to Sankritise Tamil as well by using Sankrit words in Tamil syntax, which was called Manipravalam. Manipravalam was in use till early 20th century. In the beginning of 20th century, Tanittamil Iyakkam[5] aka Pure Tamil Movement restored the language and Maripravalam is no more in use. The formal Tamil used today, such as in news bulletins and official documents, is very close to the classical form. Pure Tamil Movement, the two language policy[6] adopted by Tamil Nadu government and related efforts helped preserve the language. Although the Tamil speaking population is lesser compared to other languages such as Hindi and Telugu, Tamil has a thriving art, literature and media industry which are economically successful too. Recent archeological research at Keezhadi has revealed a 6th century BCE Sangam era settlement in Vaigai river valley[7]. If more research confirms the findings, Tamil would be one among the oldest surviving classical languages. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirukku%E1%B9%9Fa%E1%B8%B7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirukku%E1%B9%9Fa%E1%B8%B7 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangam_literature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangam_literature [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiruvasagam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiruvasagam [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanittamil_Iyakkam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanittamil_Iyakkam [6] https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/policy-lessons-in-tamil-nadus-language-formula/article32537622.ece https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/policy-lessons-in-tami... [7] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/keeladi-findings-traceable-to-6th-century-bce-report/article29461583.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/keeladi-fi...