10 ms·

I don't understand the issue? Decisions are just a state machine getting different inputs. It's the same for trees and humans.

jwmhjwmh 6y ago
The article says the organism tries several approaches in succession to escape the unpleasant carmine. This still isn't super advanced behavior, but it's interesting considering the organism is single-celled.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > the organism tries several approaches in succession to escape the unpleasant carmine This implies memory. Venus fly traps use calcium gradients for short-term memory [1]. It would be interesting to learn how this organism remembers. [1] https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-venus-flytraps-store-short-term-memories-prey https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-venus-flytraps-store...
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    > This implies memory. Shouldn't be too surprising. "In genetics, a promoter is a sequence of DNA to which proteins bind that initiate transcription of a single RNA from the DNA downstream of it. This RNA may encode a protein, or can have a function in and of itself, such as tRNA, mRNA, or rRNA. Promoters are located near the transcription start sites of genes, upstream on the DNA (towards the 5' region of the sense strand)." In programming terminology, the promoter region listens for events, and is followed by a handler body. So protein concentrations can be used for state. Regarding the calcium gradients you mentioned, I wonder... I think they are more about inter-cellular communication. Cells can use calcium to make electricity. Calcium is also used by neurons to send electric pulses. I actually find it fascinating that neurons are not unique in using electricity to communicate - that an analog exists in the plant world.
  - LaserPineapple 6y ago
    What does it remember? The approach tried previously?
    - loa_in_ 6y ago
      Probably stress level, and the approach that follows, follows from that.
jtsiskin 6y ago
Yes, but it’s a richer state machine than previously thought, and we aren’t aware of the mechanisms it’s using for internal state
- xipho 6y ago
  I think this is the key. "Just a state-machine" is a gross over-simplification. Imagine a tiny fruit-fly brain, vastly smaller than a human brain. Remarkably we can slice that brain into over 4000 pieces and try and rebuilt the connectome, which is a huge challenge in and of itself. Describing what's going on there as "state-machine" miss-represents a computer-science definition of "state-machine", and doesn't remotely reflect the biological complexity going on.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Whether it's more complex than a state machine can model (doubtful[0]) and whether it "doesn't remotely reflect the biological complexity" may be true but the guy's point still stands, it's a mechanism that can be modelled. [0] you'd have to inject non-determinism as well.
    - xyhopguy 6y ago
      non-determinism can also be modeled as a state-machine (and in fact, you can prove non-deterministic state machines can always be represented by deterministic state machines).
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Ugh, you're right and I used completely the wrong terminology. I meant some degree of randomness (I think the posh term is stochastic-something), noise, jitter etc. Not NFA/DFA stuff. Good catch and thanks.
jfk13 6y ago
Maybe. We don't know that. You take it on faith, apparently, but that doesn't prove anything.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  If you believe in a soul, and if you believe that a single celled organism (SCO) has a soul, then you can indeed delegate decision making to a non-corporeal entity. Not saying that's wrong but I struggle to accept that.
  - jfk13 6y ago
    Or you might believe that a single celled organism can reasonably be understood as a state machine responding to inputs, but that a human -- or a tree, or a cat -- is not merely a scaled-up version of this same model. We are far from knowing whether this is the case. So you can believe one extreme or the other (or something in between), but either way it's an article of faith, not an established fact.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Please clarify because I don't know - are you invoking the existence of a soul in the decision making process? If so, you're bringing in something that's purely a matter of faith as no evidence has ever been found of a soul (AFAIK). If no soul then be it single-celled or human, we're back in the mechanistic world and one is, somehow, just a more elaborate version of the other.
      - jfk13 6y ago
        We have no more evidence that what we experience as consciousness and decision-making arises from the operation of a purely mechanistic state machine than we have for the existence of a soul. Some people believe that when the machine becomes sufficiently complex, consciousness will emerge. Others don't. Either way, it's a matter of faith.
ncmncm 6y ago
They get to do more than a state machine, because they can do analog computation. You can simulate that with a state machine, but only with one that is much more complicated. Nature doesn't exactly prefer simplicity, but it's very bad at discovering solutions that need a big jump in complexity compared to a previous generation.

jwmhjwmh 6y ago

The article says the organism tries several approaches in succession to escape the unpleasant carmine. This still isn't super advanced behavior, but it's interesting considering the organism is single-celled.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> the organism tries several approaches in succession to escape the unpleasant carmine This implies memory. Venus fly traps use calcium gradients for short-term memory [1]. It would be interesting to learn how this organism remembers. [1] https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-venus-flytraps-store-short-term-memories-prey https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-venus-flytraps-store...
- im3w1l 6y ago
  > This implies memory. Shouldn't be too surprising. "In genetics, a promoter is a sequence of DNA to which proteins bind that initiate transcription of a single RNA from the DNA downstream of it. This RNA may encode a protein, or can have a function in and of itself, such as tRNA, mRNA, or rRNA. Promoters are located near the transcription start sites of genes, upstream on the DNA (towards the 5' region of the sense strand)." In programming terminology, the promoter region listens for events, and is followed by a handler body. So protein concentrations can be used for state. Regarding the calcium gradients you mentioned, I wonder... I think they are more about inter-cellular communication. Cells can use calcium to make electricity. Calcium is also used by neurons to send electric pulses. I actually find it fascinating that neurons are not unique in using electricity to communicate - that an analog exists in the plant world.
- LaserPineapple 6y ago
  What does it remember? The approach tried previously?
  - loa_in_ 6y ago
    Probably stress level, and the approach that follows, follows from that.

jtsiskin 6y ago

Yes, but it’s a richer state machine than previously thought, and we aren’t aware of the mechanisms it’s using for internal state

xipho 6y ago
I think this is the key. "Just a state-machine" is a gross over-simplification. Imagine a tiny fruit-fly brain, vastly smaller than a human brain. Remarkably we can slice that brain into over 4000 pieces and try and rebuilt the connectome, which is a huge challenge in and of itself. Describing what's going on there as "state-machine" miss-represents a computer-science definition of "state-machine", and doesn't remotely reflect the biological complexity going on.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  Whether it's more complex than a state machine can model (doubtful[0]) and whether it "doesn't remotely reflect the biological complexity" may be true but the guy's point still stands, it's a mechanism that can be modelled. [0] you'd have to inject non-determinism as well.
  - xyhopguy 6y ago
    non-determinism can also be modeled as a state-machine (and in fact, you can prove non-deterministic state machines can always be represented by deterministic state machines).
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Ugh, you're right and I used completely the wrong terminology. I meant some degree of randomness (I think the posh term is stochastic-something), noise, jitter etc. Not NFA/DFA stuff. Good catch and thanks.

jfk13 6y ago

Maybe. We don't know that. You take it on faith, apparently, but that doesn't prove anything.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
If you believe in a soul, and if you believe that a single celled organism (SCO) has a soul, then you can indeed delegate decision making to a non-corporeal entity. Not saying that's wrong but I struggle to accept that.
- jfk13 6y ago
  Or you might believe that a single celled organism can reasonably be understood as a state machine responding to inputs, but that a human -- or a tree, or a cat -- is not merely a scaled-up version of this same model. We are far from knowing whether this is the case. So you can believe one extreme or the other (or something in between), but either way it's an article of faith, not an established fact.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Please clarify because I don't know - are you invoking the existence of a soul in the decision making process? If so, you're bringing in something that's purely a matter of faith as no evidence has ever been found of a soul (AFAIK). If no soul then be it single-celled or human, we're back in the mechanistic world and one is, somehow, just a more elaborate version of the other.
    - jfk13 6y ago
      We have no more evidence that what we experience as consciousness and decision-making arises from the operation of a purely mechanistic state machine than we have for the existence of a soul. Some people believe that when the machine becomes sufficiently complex, consciousness will emerge. Others don't. Either way, it's a matter of faith.

ncmncm 6y ago

They get to do more than a state machine, because they can do analog computation. You can simulate that with a state machine, but only with one that is much more complicated. Nature doesn't exactly prefer simplicity, but it's very bad at discovering solutions that need a big jump in complexity compared to a previous generation.