3 ms·

Hi, thank you for the reply. > Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this f

by dahart 6y ago

Hi, thank you for the reply. > Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me. Are you saying you're dumping a pile of research links into this thread that you haven't even bothered to read, just because it showed up on Google? I do appreciate the diplomatic tone and pile of links (you seem to have plenty of energy!) but your appeal to authority is ducking the two actual questions I've asked: why do you care - what stake do you have in this debate - what is prompting you to keep posting links to SRBR, especially if this is only the result of a quick cursory Google search? And secondly, why are you convinced by SRBR's position claims after I've pointed out several (easily verifiable) citations that fail to support the claims they're being used to make? Maybe I'm wrong, and there is scientific consensus. I don't know because I haven't studied long enough. All I know is that SRBR's publications tickle my spidey sense BS meter a little bit. Now that I've verified myself they're playing fast and loose with some of their scientific research, it's going to be difficult for me to trust anything they say. It would take less time than you've already spent promoting SRBR links in this thread alone to go verify a few of the sketchy citations I called out explicitly. Have you tried to verify the problems I called out? Why blindly trust experts that mislead?

throw0101a 6y ago
We live in the post-Gutenberg world and I don't have time to research every topic in every specialization. I do not have time to read the IPCC's entire climate change report, so will maybe look at the Abstract or Conclusion. See also experts on COVID-19, vaccinations, and GMO foods. A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be "well I like later sunsets". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so anyway because that's what the expert consensus is. The various Chronobiologist and Sleep Experts are putting forward (consensus?) statements that Standard Time is best, so I'll follow that. If you want to dig into the various Societies' position papers on DST/ST have at it. HN has all sorts of disagreements on all sorts of topic, and this may be another one of them. I put forward these links as perhaps a starting point, and will not claim that they are an end point. If you want to argue against PhDs and say it's Snake Oil, I'm not going to contend it as I haven't put in the work (perhaps like you have). I have been curious about DST (and time) for a while, especially since the IT drama of the DST time change during the Bush years, but the specific subject of DST popped up again last year due to the op-ed by the Canadian Society for Chronobiology: * https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-the-clock-on-daylight-savings-why-standard-time-all-year/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-th... If you think it's Snake Oil feel free to talk with the authors who work at various Canadian universities: * https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian * https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/ https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/ * https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/Tami-Martino https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/T...
- dahart 6y ago
  Hey I'm still curious about it too. Thank you again for your reply and explanation! I don't think the field of chronobiology is snake oil. My only problem is some of SRBR's citations seem to be used to make stronger claims, stated with far greater certainty than the research actually supports. So the question, naturally, is why? You do care if the links you're posting, even as starting points, are fully true, partly true, or not true? Have you checked any of the citations I called out? (It would take no more than a few minutes.) Do you agree or disagree with my take? > A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be "well I like later sunsets". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so anyway because that's what the expert consensus is. Let's not get too carried away with analogies, there's a pretty big difference in the study, certainty, magnitude and consensus of disease prevention strategies right now than there is in the barely directly studied and marginal tradeoffs of DST. More or less all of the research you've posted talks about lack of direct study of DST time shifts and the need for more research (which is why the "strong" claims and conclusions seem especially problematic). A lot of the research you're posting seems to boil down to "well we should wake up with the sunrise, not before", which could well be true. Abolishing DST in favor of standard time is being advocated for the reason that staying on DST pushes winter waking to before the sun comes up. I don't want that, it's a little difficult and depressing and puts the morning winter commute into darkness. If standard time is that much more important than DST, what is happening to people in Finland, Norway, Iceland and Svalbard, where the time shift becomes irrelevant compared to the sun shift? Are they unhappy, unhealthy or dying? Getting rid of DST means we're out of sync with the sun in the summer. If you believe it's important to rise with the sun in the winter, then it's probably not fair to characterize DST as "I like later sunsets". Is it also bad to sleep well past sunrise, and then go to bed well into darkness, or would it be better to let the sleep schedule slide to be more aligned with sunrise and sunset in the summer? It seems like all the biological reasons to advocate for winter alignment shouldn't be selectively ignored during the summer, right? This is why I asked in another subthread whether neither daylight not standard is ideal, and we should rise with the sun. That's what animals do naturally, and what humans likely did before industrialization, right?

by dahart 6y ago

throw0101a 6y ago

We live in the post-Gutenberg world and I don't have time to research every topic in every specialization. I do not have time to read the IPCC's entire climate change report, so will maybe look at the Abstract or Conclusion. See also experts on COVID-19, vaccinations, and GMO foods. A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be "well I like later sunsets". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so anyway because that's what the expert consensus is. The various Chronobiologist and Sleep Experts are putting forward (consensus?) statements that Standard Time is best, so I'll follow that. If you want to dig into the various Societies' position papers on DST/ST have at it. HN has all sorts of disagreements on all sorts of topic, and this may be another one of them. I put forward these links as perhaps a starting point, and will not claim that they are an end point. If you want to argue against PhDs and say it's Snake Oil, I'm not going to contend it as I haven't put in the work (perhaps like you have). I have been curious about DST (and time) for a while, especially since the IT drama of the DST time change during the Bush years, but the specific subject of DST popped up again last year due to the op-ed by the Canadian Society for Chronobiology: * https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-the-clock-on-daylight-savings-why-standard-time-all-year/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-th... If you think it's Snake Oil feel free to talk with the authors who work at various Canadian universities: * https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian * https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/ https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/ * https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/Tami-Martino https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/T...

dahart 6y ago
Hey I'm still curious about it too. Thank you again for your reply and explanation! I don't think the field of chronobiology is snake oil. My only problem is some of SRBR's citations seem to be used to make stronger claims, stated with far greater certainty than the research actually supports. So the question, naturally, is why? You do care if the links you're posting, even as starting points, are fully true, partly true, or not true? Have you checked any of the citations I called out? (It would take no more than a few minutes.) Do you agree or disagree with my take? > A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be "well I like later sunsets". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so anyway because that's what the expert consensus is. Let's not get too carried away with analogies, there's a pretty big difference in the study, certainty, magnitude and consensus of disease prevention strategies right now than there is in the barely directly studied and marginal tradeoffs of DST. More or less all of the research you've posted talks about lack of direct study of DST time shifts and the need for more research (which is why the "strong" claims and conclusions seem especially problematic). A lot of the research you're posting seems to boil down to "well we should wake up with the sunrise, not before", which could well be true. Abolishing DST in favor of standard time is being advocated for the reason that staying on DST pushes winter waking to before the sun comes up. I don't want that, it's a little difficult and depressing and puts the morning winter commute into darkness. If standard time is that much more important than DST, what is happening to people in Finland, Norway, Iceland and Svalbard, where the time shift becomes irrelevant compared to the sun shift? Are they unhappy, unhealthy or dying? Getting rid of DST means we're out of sync with the sun in the summer. If you believe it's important to rise with the sun in the winter, then it's probably not fair to characterize DST as "I like later sunsets". Is it also bad to sleep well past sunrise, and then go to bed well into darkness, or would it be better to let the sleep schedule slide to be more aligned with sunrise and sunset in the summer? It seems like all the biological reasons to advocate for winter alignment shouldn't be selectively ignored during the summer, right? This is why I asked in another subthread whether neither daylight not standard is ideal, and we should rise with the sun. That's what animals do naturally, and what humans likely did before industrialization, right?