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But... there are actually people who believe that those with a certain skin color or of a certain sexual orientation or religion actually should not have basic
by ethanbond 6y ago
But... there are actually people who believe that those with a certain skin color or of a certain sexual orientation or religion actually should not have basic rights.
Not everyone who gets targeted as such holds those beliefs, sure, but they absolutely do exist in America. Until fairly recently, those people’s beliefs actually drove real policies in America that had real teeth and caused real suffering for real people. Of course we still see remnants of these policies and we certainly see knock-on effects of them today.
It would certainly help if the left did a better job at isolating those who actually hold the beliefs I listed above versus those who hold beliefs that are merely “in the orbit” of them. It would be great also if the right did a better job of isolating themselves and their own respectable beliefs from those beliefs that are not respectable.
But in any case to act like any belief that someone holds needs to be treated with respect and never framed as a direct affront to human rights, even if it is, shows a lack of knowledge about the range of things that people actually believe.
- afpx 6y agoThese topics have been debated for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Hence, the US constitution was created. It’s been working pretty well so far. And, I don’t think it’ll be changing anytime soon.
- ethanbond 6y agoThe US Constitution has been working pretty well for some people so far. For others, it has only started to work well thanks to brave Americans standing up and risking their lives to demand that it work well for more people than before. A lot of that work involved dismissing some ideologies as fundamentally incompatible with America. Speaking of civility, one time we literally had to go to war with ourselves over what one side would characterize as a mere “political disagreement.” The Constitution failed to protect people from systematic rape, torture, and forced labor for nearly the first 100 years of its governance over America. It failed to allow women to get credit before 1974. None of what we have today is guaranteed. Plenty of nations have slid backwards from liberalism.
- tom-_- 6y ago"Basic rights" is a subjective term and they're often in conflict with each other. Pro-choice vs pro-life being the classic example. If you believe freedom of speech is a basic right, then you should also believe in protecting the right of bigots to spread diatribe.
- ethanbond 6y agoAnd I do believe that right ought to be protected. Nowhere in this thread is someone advocating that the state exercise its power to throw people with despicable beliefs in prison. This is about our society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not. Some ideas are simply not deserving of respect, though of course all ideas are deserving of legal protection. Nazis are allowed to march down 5th Avenue and the people who call those beliefs despicable are not “just as bad as the other side.”
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago> "This is about our society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not." Yes, and that ability does not include harassment, doxxing, threats, and attempting to induce employers and customers to end their relationships with them. That _is_ just as bad as the other side.
- ethanbond 6y agoWithout implying a defense of the behavior you listed: Maybe you should read more about the other side.
- ThrowawayR2 6y agoI know what their views are but thank you for your kind suggestion. However, I also know where rhetoric about "society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not" leads. I stand by my opinion.