8 ms·

I dont think that's quite fair, basic civility would mean not immediately trying to frame something you disagree with as denying basic rights, and trying to hav

I dont think that's quite fair, basic civility would mean not immediately trying to frame something you disagree with as denying basic rights, and trying to have a more practical discussion about the issues.

viraptor 6y ago
I'm not referring to framing something ambiguous. I mean for example people openly discussing final solution to Jew problem. Are you suggesting basic civility and discussion about the issue with them?
- mc32 6y ago
  That's disingenuous. That is an unusual extreme view held by neo-nazis AND extreme leftists (nation of islam types). We're talking about people not feeling comfortable having a debate over abortion (it's a third rail on either side to try and establish a time when a foetus becomes a recognized being). This is something we should be curious to establish a benchmark for. Both sides fear that if we establish a number of days at which then we can't have abortions after and the other side fears we can have abortions before)
  - viraptor 6y ago
    I literally qualified my post with "once the views become too extreme". It's exactly what this thread is about. (I agree with your position on non-extreme views enough)
- matz1 6y ago
  Yes including that issue. One person extreme view is just another person normal view, its subjective.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Are you suggesting that you are not able to reject those ideas if you hear them? Or are you suggesting that I cannot? I am an adult. You don't need to protect me from hate-speech.
ethanbond 6y ago
But... there are actually people who believe that those with a certain skin color or of a certain sexual orientation or religion actually should not have basic rights. Not everyone who gets targeted as such holds those beliefs, sure, but they absolutely do exist in America. Until fairly recently, those people’s beliefs actually drove real policies in America that had real teeth and caused real suffering for real people. Of course we still see remnants of these policies and we certainly see knock-on effects of them today. It would certainly help if the left did a better job at isolating those who actually hold the beliefs I listed above versus those who hold beliefs that are merely “in the orbit” of them. It would be great also if the right did a better job of isolating themselves and their own respectable beliefs from those beliefs that are not respectable. But in any case to act like any belief that someone holds needs to be treated with respect and never framed as a direct affront to human rights, even if it is, shows a lack of knowledge about the range of things that people actually believe.
- afpx 6y ago
  These topics have been debated for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Hence, the US constitution was created. It’s been working pretty well so far. And, I don’t think it’ll be changing anytime soon.
  - ethanbond 6y ago
    The US Constitution has been working pretty well for some people so far. For others, it has only started to work well thanks to brave Americans standing up and risking their lives to demand that it work well for more people than before. A lot of that work involved dismissing some ideologies as fundamentally incompatible with America. Speaking of civility, one time we literally had to go to war with ourselves over what one side would characterize as a mere “political disagreement.” The Constitution failed to protect people from systematic rape, torture, and forced labor for nearly the first 100 years of its governance over America. It failed to allow women to get credit before 1974. None of what we have today is guaranteed. Plenty of nations have slid backwards from liberalism.
- tom-_- 6y ago

viraptor 6y ago

I'm not referring to framing something ambiguous. I mean for example people openly discussing final solution to Jew problem. Are you suggesting basic civility and discussion about the issue with them?

mc32 6y ago
That's disingenuous. That is an unusual extreme view held by neo-nazis AND extreme leftists (nation of islam types). We're talking about people not feeling comfortable having a debate over abortion (it's a third rail on either side to try and establish a time when a foetus becomes a recognized being). This is something we should be curious to establish a benchmark for. Both sides fear that if we establish a number of days at which then we can't have abortions after and the other side fears we can have abortions before)
- viraptor 6y ago
  I literally qualified my post with "once the views become too extreme". It's exactly what this thread is about. (I agree with your position on non-extreme views enough)
matz1 6y ago
Yes including that issue. One person extreme view is just another person normal view, its subjective.
koheripbal 6y ago
Are you suggesting that you are not able to reject those ideas if you hear them? Or are you suggesting that I cannot? I am an adult. You don't need to protect me from hate-speech.

ethanbond 6y ago

But... there are actually people who believe that those with a certain skin color or of a certain sexual orientation or religion actually should not have basic rights. Not everyone who gets targeted as such holds those beliefs, sure, but they absolutely do exist in America. Until fairly recently, those people’s beliefs actually drove real policies in America that had real teeth and caused real suffering for real people. Of course we still see remnants of these policies and we certainly see knock-on effects of them today. It would certainly help if the left did a better job at isolating those who actually hold the beliefs I listed above versus those who hold beliefs that are merely “in the orbit” of them. It would be great also if the right did a better job of isolating themselves and their own respectable beliefs from those beliefs that are not respectable. But in any case to act like any belief that someone holds needs to be treated with respect and never framed as a direct affront to human rights, even if it is, shows a lack of knowledge about the range of things that people actually believe.

afpx 6y ago
These topics have been debated for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Hence, the US constitution was created. It’s been working pretty well so far. And, I don’t think it’ll be changing anytime soon.
- ethanbond 6y ago
  The US Constitution has been working pretty well for some people so far. For others, it has only started to work well thanks to brave Americans standing up and risking their lives to demand that it work well for more people than before. A lot of that work involved dismissing some ideologies as fundamentally incompatible with America. Speaking of civility, one time we literally had to go to war with ourselves over what one side would characterize as a mere “political disagreement.” The Constitution failed to protect people from systematic rape, torture, and forced labor for nearly the first 100 years of its governance over America. It failed to allow women to get credit before 1974. None of what we have today is guaranteed. Plenty of nations have slid backwards from liberalism.
tom-_- 6y ago