4 ms·

PHP allows folks without a strong background to solve some simple business problems which, in general, is a good thing. But once the project exceeds a certain c

by ptero 6y ago

PHP allows folks without a strong background to solve some simple business problems which, in general, is a good thing. But once the project exceeds a certain complexity threshold (which I admit many business problems never do), this approach hits a wall: things break and fixing it breaks more things and it is an uphill battle to move in the right direction. Adding a significant new capability -- forget it. To make things worse, this cannot easily be fixed because the implementation is a hodge-podge of ideas and functions. You cannot find good architecture people who want to work in PHP to clean it. It cannot easily be re-architected because it captures a lot of business wisdom. And business people (rightly) suspect pitches for a new built-from-scratch solution: sure, it will be fast and maybe it will be reliable; but will it solve their problem? will employees need to be re-trained? etc.

new_guy 6y ago
That's not the languages fault, it's the incompetence of the people trying to use it.
- ssalazar 6y ago
  Ah, “you’re holding it wrong.” Good languages make it easy to build and maintain robust, scalable, and secure solutions to problems.
altdatathrow 6y ago
Facebook ($750B), Slack ($15B), and Etsy ($15B) would beg to differ. But whatever, your arrogant, gatekeeping and elitist mentality is primarily a roadblock for your own career growth.
- ptero 6y ago
  Wow, chill. I do not know what part of my post you reacted to, but to clarify, I do not mean that professional software engineers working on PHP are unskilled. What I meant was that PHP and its frameworks allow business person to solve simple problems without hiring a good software developer. Which is OK in many cases, but when this fails to work, it fails hard in a way that is both painful and difficult to quickly address.
  - altdatathrow 6y ago
    You just reiterated it. Your view is that PHP is only used by non-educated simpletons and who are only capable of solving the most mundane of business problems. This sort of elitist attitude is really frustrating on a forum that's supposed to embody the "hacker" spirit, that is, building things and getting shit done without worrying about whether or not someone is going to come along and criticize the correctness of their code while blissfully ignoring their innovative idea, or the fact that it works, and the impact on the world. It's pure gatekeeping garbage. This of course is coming, like usual, from someone who spent a significant portion of their life in academia and then moved to R&D and still has yet to make a dent in the world, or likely their student loans.
    - ptero 6y ago
      Mate, I will try one more time. (A implies B) does not mean (not A implies not B). Those are unrelated logical statements. As an unrelated example, almost anyone can now do their own accurate temperature and blood pressure measurements, so the vast majority of temperature measurements is done by those with no medical training. This does not mean that nurses and doctors who do the same measurement (that a middle school student can do) are any less skilled in medicine, let alone "non-educated simpletons".
      - 00deadbeef 6y ago
        FWIW I've interpreted your posts in the same way as the other person. They come across as deliberately inflammatory.
      - mgkimsal 6y ago
        "What I meant was that PHP and its frameworks allow business person to solve simple problems without hiring a good software developer..." There seems to be an implication that an org using PHP has not also hired good software developers. Or that a good software developer would not use PHP. My logic skills may be a bit rusty at this point, but I suspect that's what altdatathrow was reacting to.
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  Facebook didn’t make its money because of innovative PHP uses. And it based on this (somewhat old) discussion the quality of code at Facebook is universally terrible: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3r90iy/facebooks_code_quality_problem/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3r90iy/faceboo... Which I am not blaming PHP for specifically, but rather that “you say PHP sucks but Facebook made a lot of money” is not an argument and is particularly dumb for Facebook specifically. And the personal attacks are really not ok.
blub 6y ago
One could swap PHP for any possible language and your comment could still be true, because you're describing project management and software architecture failures. It reads like you're talking about a specific project and trying to generalize?

by ptero 6y ago

new_guy 6y ago

That's not the languages fault, it's the incompetence of the people trying to use it.

ssalazar 6y ago
Ah, “you’re holding it wrong.” Good languages make it easy to build and maintain robust, scalable, and secure solutions to problems.

altdatathrow 6y ago

Facebook ($750B), Slack ($15B), and Etsy ($15B) would beg to differ. But whatever, your arrogant, gatekeeping and elitist mentality is primarily a roadblock for your own career growth.

ptero 6y ago
Wow, chill. I do not know what part of my post you reacted to, but to clarify, I do not mean that professional software engineers working on PHP are unskilled. What I meant was that PHP and its frameworks allow business person to solve simple problems without hiring a good software developer. Which is OK in many cases, but when this fails to work, it fails hard in a way that is both painful and difficult to quickly address.
- altdatathrow 6y ago
  You just reiterated it. Your view is that PHP is only used by non-educated simpletons and who are only capable of solving the most mundane of business problems. This sort of elitist attitude is really frustrating on a forum that's supposed to embody the "hacker" spirit, that is, building things and getting shit done without worrying about whether or not someone is going to come along and criticize the correctness of their code while blissfully ignoring their innovative idea, or the fact that it works, and the impact on the world. It's pure gatekeeping garbage. This of course is coming, like usual, from someone who spent a significant portion of their life in academia and then moved to R&D and still has yet to make a dent in the world, or likely their student loans.
  - ptero 6y ago
    Mate, I will try one more time. (A implies B) does not mean (not A implies not B). Those are unrelated logical statements. As an unrelated example, almost anyone can now do their own accurate temperature and blood pressure measurements, so the vast majority of temperature measurements is done by those with no medical training. This does not mean that nurses and doctors who do the same measurement (that a middle school student can do) are any less skilled in medicine, let alone "non-educated simpletons".
    - 00deadbeef 6y ago
      FWIW I've interpreted your posts in the same way as the other person. They come across as deliberately inflammatory.
    - mgkimsal 6y ago
      "What I meant was that PHP and its frameworks allow business person to solve simple problems without hiring a good software developer..." There seems to be an implication that an org using PHP has not also hired good software developers. Or that a good software developer would not use PHP. My logic skills may be a bit rusty at this point, but I suspect that's what altdatathrow was reacting to.
ojnabieoot 6y ago
Facebook didn’t make its money because of innovative PHP uses. And it based on this (somewhat old) discussion the quality of code at Facebook is universally terrible: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3r90iy/facebooks_code_quality_problem/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3r90iy/faceboo... Which I am not blaming PHP for specifically, but rather that “you say PHP sucks but Facebook made a lot of money” is not an argument and is particularly dumb for Facebook specifically. And the personal attacks are really not ok.

blub 6y ago

One could swap PHP for any possible language and your comment could still be true, because you're describing project management and software architecture failures. It reads like you're talking about a specific project and trying to generalize?