4 ms·

In recent times, I've seen several news stories of widespread caste discrimination in Silicon Valley, but the standard of evidence by which this is claimed seem

In recent times, I've seen several news stories of widespread caste discrimination in Silicon Valley, but the standard of evidence by which this is claimed seems to be poor. It's basically asking people who claim they've been hurt or discriminated against. The only actual legal case in all these stories is the one against Cisco, and that's still in progress. Of course there will be casteists among the Indians in the Bay Area (India has enormous numbers of them). But it's not clear they have any ability to inflict discrimination on the lower castes. If they do, I haven't seen evidence of it. Stories claim that lower-caste employees have had their Indian upper caste managers discriminate, hurt their careers and even sexually harrass them, but HR departments say they can't do anything because caste is not a protected category. I work in Silicon Valley, and have a hard time with this picture of the culture and HR departments in the area.

suyash 6y ago
yes, in the era of fake news, what can you expect. Working in SV as an Indian person, never heard or experienced it.
- root_axis 6y ago
  Things that I don't experience don't exist. Reporting on things I don't experience is fake news.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- iamshs 6y ago
  >Joshi. With that surname you will not experience it either in your lifetime, mate.
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    What’s your name?
    - iamshs 6y ago
      Don't worry, you won't be able to tell my caste through my name. Your incisive question though validates the whole point of this article.
cscurmudgeon 6y ago
You should have learnt by now to not ask for evidence for virtue signalling contest stories. Just accept the narrative unquestioningly and move on. We are living in a brave new post-Truth world. Indians go against the narrative of systemic racism in the US , so it is only time that the left came after them. Once again, instead of attacking me or downvoting, ask yourself logically: where is the evidence for this? I am not saying it does not exist. All I am asking for is some data of large scale caste discrimination not anecdotes. We can find anecdotes for discrimination by every permutation of labels.
- iamshs 6y ago
  You are denying caste discrimination and then washing it off as "post truth" world. That's atrocious actually. Caste discrimination is not some kind of narrative building either, these are lived experiences spanning centuries.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Their comment includes the phrase "I'm not saying it doesn't exist", so I think you're being a bit uncharitable with this retort.
    - trowawee 6y ago
      "post-Truth", "virtue signalling", and "accept the narrative unquestioningly" are all (barely) coded flags to say "This thing doesn't exist/isn't true." Following those up with "I'm not saying it doesn't exist" is just a rhetorical feint to seem reasonable.
      - free_rms 6y ago
        More charitably, you could read that as "doesn't widely exist", which would track with my experience working with dozens of Indian developers over the last couple decades. I think OP was being curmudgeonly because they saw this as people trying to drag Indians into the existing culture war stuff as a pawn, after basically pretending they don't exist for decades while getting all sorts of mad on behalf of different minorities.
ev1 6y ago
I've (anecdotally, FAANG, SF) seen a few cases involving Indian interviewer/interviewee given special treatment/favouritism/easy interviews or a formality, stuff like "hey you are from same village" or similar.
- chanakya 6y ago
  That does sound more plausible. Hiring people you feel comfortable with happens everywhere, and in India that often means people who speak your language or are from your region.
pratik661 6y ago
Something I've also noticed in Western media is that when covering issues about other cultures (ie India, Middle East, etc), the bar for evidence is pitifully low, especially if the story matches existing confirmation bias. For instance, when there was a major rape in India, the media was scrutinizing Indian attitudes towards sexual violence. As evidence of such attitudes, they mentioned a BJP politician who said that "rape is sometimes right, sometimes wrong" https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-india-rape/mp-minister-babulal-gaur-says-rape-sometimes-right-sometimes-wrong-idINKBN0EG1EX20140605 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-india-rape/mp-minister-ba... In the actual video where he says it, (in Hindi), he says that the "rape allegations are sometimes correct, sometimes wrong". I don't agree with the assessment (I think all allegations should be taken seriously), but it COMPLETELY different fromwhat is reported by Reuters (and other news sources). There are many instances of this. This is why I typically don't trust Western media coverage of other countries. Best source would be a local English language newspaper.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  John Oliver claims (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qVIXUhZ2AWs#t=12m10s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qVIXUhZ2AWs#t=12m10s 12m10s) that India has (at least some) public school textbooks that explain that Africans are god's burnt toast, and Caucasians are underdone, and Indians are the proper color. I found that suspicious. Have you heard about that? Is the translation accurate?
  - pratik661 6y ago
    This sounds like perfect example. The story isn't 100% false but it probably needs some context. I've actually heard the oven story before. Its an absurd (and very racist) aphorism, but I think calling it a "lesson" from a textbook would be a stretch. What likely happened was that the school selected anthologies that kids could read to develop their reading skills. It probably included that absurd story. I think the American equivalent would be if a 2nd grade reading book included an old fairy tale with some outdated racist undertones (ie Zwarte Piet), and then the media ran with "American textbooks claim a black elf will kidnap children if they misbehave". PS. I'll need to check of the textbook story.
codingdave 6y ago
> HR departments say they can't do anything because caste is not a protected category. That is a cop-out. Most HR policies have a somewhat broad use case where if someone is creating a hostile work environment, that is not OK, whether the reason for it is protected or not. Maybe HR cannot fire them in some jurisdictions, but they absolutely can step in in other ways to fix the problem.
- chanakya 6y ago
  It's either a cop-out by HR departments, or a false claim that HR departments do this. Knowing the cultures in large Bay Area companies, it's hard to imagine someone going to HR to complain about discrimination or harrassment, and HR saying: "Go away, you are not in a protected class".
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
It’s different for women. We have already bonded over the debilitating condition of possessing XX genetically. Caste, creed, skin colour, class doesn’t matter after that point.
LockAndLol 6y ago
> HR departments say they can't do anything because caste is not a protected category The whole idea of "protected categories" just sounds wrong to me. The current system makes it seem like it's always OK to discriminate, but only these reasons are not OK. It sets the default to "we're all considered unequal before the law except under these circumstances where we are considered to be equal". That's working with a blacklist in world where the number of reasons for discrimination is infinite. It would make much more sense IMO to use a whitelist instead: you may only legally discriminate in these cases otherwise it's illegal = "we're all considered equal except in these cases where we have to be allowed to differentiate". Issues like the current one would be prosecutable without adding another protected category.

suyash 6y ago

yes, in the era of fake news, what can you expect. Working in SV as an Indian person, never heard or experienced it.

root_axis 6y ago
Things that I don't experience don't exist. Reporting on things I don't experience is fake news.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
iamshs 6y ago
>Joshi. With that surname you will not experience it either in your lifetime, mate.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  What’s your name?
  - iamshs 6y ago
    Don't worry, you won't be able to tell my caste through my name. Your incisive question though validates the whole point of this article.

cscurmudgeon 6y ago

You should have learnt by now to not ask for evidence for virtue signalling contest stories. Just accept the narrative unquestioningly and move on. We are living in a brave new post-Truth world. Indians go against the narrative of systemic racism in the US , so it is only time that the left came after them. Once again, instead of attacking me or downvoting, ask yourself logically: where is the evidence for this? I am not saying it does not exist. All I am asking for is some data of large scale caste discrimination not anecdotes. We can find anecdotes for discrimination by every permutation of labels.

iamshs 6y ago
You are denying caste discrimination and then washing it off as "post truth" world. That's atrocious actually. Caste discrimination is not some kind of narrative building either, these are lived experiences spanning centuries.
- free_rms 6y ago
  Their comment includes the phrase "I'm not saying it doesn't exist", so I think you're being a bit uncharitable with this retort.
  - trowawee 6y ago
    "post-Truth", "virtue signalling", and "accept the narrative unquestioningly" are all (barely) coded flags to say "This thing doesn't exist/isn't true." Following those up with "I'm not saying it doesn't exist" is just a rhetorical feint to seem reasonable.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      More charitably, you could read that as "doesn't widely exist", which would track with my experience working with dozens of Indian developers over the last couple decades. I think OP was being curmudgeonly because they saw this as people trying to drag Indians into the existing culture war stuff as a pawn, after basically pretending they don't exist for decades while getting all sorts of mad on behalf of different minorities.

ev1 6y ago

I've (anecdotally, FAANG, SF) seen a few cases involving Indian interviewer/interviewee given special treatment/favouritism/easy interviews or a formality, stuff like "hey you are from same village" or similar.

chanakya 6y ago
That does sound more plausible. Hiring people you feel comfortable with happens everywhere, and in India that often means people who speak your language or are from your region.

pratik661 6y ago

Something I've also noticed in Western media is that when covering issues about other cultures (ie India, Middle East, etc), the bar for evidence is pitifully low, especially if the story matches existing confirmation bias. For instance, when there was a major rape in India, the media was scrutinizing Indian attitudes towards sexual violence. As evidence of such attitudes, they mentioned a BJP politician who said that "rape is sometimes right, sometimes wrong" https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-india-rape/mp-minister-babulal-gaur-says-rape-sometimes-right-sometimes-wrong-idINKBN0EG1EX20140605 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-india-rape/mp-minister-ba... In the actual video where he says it, (in Hindi), he says that the "rape allegations are sometimes correct, sometimes wrong". I don't agree with the assessment (I think all allegations should be taken seriously), but it COMPLETELY different fromwhat is reported by Reuters (and other news sources). There are many instances of this. This is why I typically don't trust Western media coverage of other countries. Best source would be a local English language newspaper.

alisonkisk 6y ago
John Oliver claims (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qVIXUhZ2AWs#t=12m10s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qVIXUhZ2AWs#t=12m10s 12m10s) that India has (at least some) public school textbooks that explain that Africans are god's burnt toast, and Caucasians are underdone, and Indians are the proper color. I found that suspicious. Have you heard about that? Is the translation accurate?
- pratik661 6y ago
  This sounds like perfect example. The story isn't 100% false but it probably needs some context. I've actually heard the oven story before. Its an absurd (and very racist) aphorism, but I think calling it a "lesson" from a textbook would be a stretch. What likely happened was that the school selected anthologies that kids could read to develop their reading skills. It probably included that absurd story. I think the American equivalent would be if a 2nd grade reading book included an old fairy tale with some outdated racist undertones (ie Zwarte Piet), and then the media ran with "American textbooks claim a black elf will kidnap children if they misbehave". PS. I'll need to check of the textbook story.

codingdave 6y ago

> HR departments say they can't do anything because caste is not a protected category. That is a cop-out. Most HR policies have a somewhat broad use case where if someone is creating a hostile work environment, that is not OK, whether the reason for it is protected or not. Maybe HR cannot fire them in some jurisdictions, but they absolutely can step in in other ways to fix the problem.

chanakya 6y ago
It's either a cop-out by HR departments, or a false claim that HR departments do this. Knowing the cultures in large Bay Area companies, it's hard to imagine someone going to HR to complain about discrimination or harrassment, and HR saying: "Go away, you are not in a protected class".

jelliclesfarm 6y ago

It’s different for women. We have already bonded over the debilitating condition of possessing XX genetically. Caste, creed, skin colour, class doesn’t matter after that point.

LockAndLol 6y ago

> HR departments say they can't do anything because caste is not a protected category The whole idea of "protected categories" just sounds wrong to me. The current system makes it seem like it's always OK to discriminate, but only these reasons are not OK. It sets the default to "we're all considered unequal before the law except under these circumstances where we are considered to be equal". That's working with a blacklist in world where the number of reasons for discrimination is infinite. It would make much more sense IMO to use a whitelist instead: you may only legally discriminate in these cases otherwise it's illegal = "we're all considered equal except in these cases where we have to be allowed to differentiate". Issues like the current one would be prosecutable without adding another protected category.