3 ms·

Yeah, so I’ve followed the citations from SRBR’s position paper in the past https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24314134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2

by dahart 6y ago

Yeah, so I’ve followed the citations from SRBR’s position paper in the past https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24314134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24314134 And I found that the research was being quite seriously misrepresented. Based on reading the paper and reading quite a few of the papers they cite, I do not believe there is evidence to justify a claim that there exists any measurable health differences between staying on daylight vs staying on standard. This appears to me to be someone’s agenda, and not something the research we have actually supports.

throw0101a 6y ago
> This appears to me to be someone’s agenda, and not something the research we have actually supports. Other position papers that I've dug up when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (refs, with pro and co): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-SRBRPressKit.pdf https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S... European Sleep Research Society: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... Canadian Society for Chronobiology: * https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-the-clock-on-daylight-savings-why-standard-time-all-year/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-th... * https://twitter.com/ChronobioCanada/status/1190632096596926464 https://twitter.com/ChronobioCanada/status/11906320965969264... American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further): * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 * https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel): * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * http://www.chronobiology.ch http://www.chronobiology.ch (Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me. Please don't take this post as an attack or anything.)
- dahart 6y ago
  Hi, thank you for the reply. > Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me. Are you saying you're dumping a pile of research links into this thread that you haven't even bothered to read, just because it showed up on Google? I do appreciate the diplomatic tone and pile of links (you seem to have plenty of energy!) but your appeal to authority is ducking the two actual questions I've asked: why do you care - what stake do you have in this debate - what is prompting you to keep posting links to SRBR, especially if this is only the result of a quick cursory Google search? And secondly, why are you convinced by SRBR's position claims after I've pointed out several (easily verifiable) citations that fail to support the claims they're being used to make? Maybe I'm wrong, and there is scientific consensus. I don't know because I haven't studied long enough. All I know is that SRBR's publications tickle my spidey sense BS meter a little bit. Now that I've verified myself they're playing fast and loose with some of their scientific research, it's going to be difficult for me to trust anything they say. It would take less time than you've already spent promoting SRBR links in this thread alone to go verify a few of the sketchy citations I called out explicitly. Have you tried to verify the problems I called out? Why blindly trust experts that mislead?
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    We live in the post-Gutenberg world and I don't have time to research every topic in every specialization. I do not have time to read the IPCC's entire climate change report, so will maybe look at the Abstract or Conclusion. See also experts on COVID-19, vaccinations, and GMO foods. A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be "well I like later sunsets". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so anyway because that's what the expert consensus is. The various Chronobiologist and Sleep Experts are putting forward (consensus?) statements that Standard Time is best, so I'll follow that. If you want to dig into the various Societies' position papers on DST/ST have at it. HN has all sorts of disagreements on all sorts of topic, and this may be another one of them. I put forward these links as perhaps a starting point, and will not claim that they are an end point. If you want to argue against PhDs and say it's Snake Oil, I'm not going to contend it as I haven't put in the work (perhaps like you have). I have been curious about DST (and time) for a while, especially since the IT drama of the DST time change during the Bush years, but the specific subject of DST popped up again last year due to the op-ed by the Canadian Society for Chronobiology: * https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-the-clock-on-daylight-savings-why-standard-time-all-year/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-th... If you think it's Snake Oil feel free to talk with the authors who work at various Canadian universities: * https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian * https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/ https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/ * https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/Tami-Martino https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/T...

by dahart 6y ago

throw0101a 6y ago

> This appears to me to be someone’s agenda, and not something the research we have actually supports. Other position papers that I've dug up when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (refs, with pro and co): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-SRBRPressKit.pdf https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S... European Sleep Research Society: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... Canadian Society for Chronobiology: * https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-the-clock-on-daylight-savings-why-standard-time-all-year/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-th... * https://twitter.com/ChronobioCanada/status/1190632096596926464 https://twitter.com/ChronobioCanada/status/11906320965969264... American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further): * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 * https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel): * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * http://www.chronobiology.ch http://www.chronobiology.ch (Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me. Please don't take this post as an attack or anything.)

dahart 6y ago
Hi, thank you for the reply. > Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me. Are you saying you're dumping a pile of research links into this thread that you haven't even bothered to read, just because it showed up on Google? I do appreciate the diplomatic tone and pile of links (you seem to have plenty of energy!) but your appeal to authority is ducking the two actual questions I've asked: why do you care - what stake do you have in this debate - what is prompting you to keep posting links to SRBR, especially if this is only the result of a quick cursory Google search? And secondly, why are you convinced by SRBR's position claims after I've pointed out several (easily verifiable) citations that fail to support the claims they're being used to make? Maybe I'm wrong, and there is scientific consensus. I don't know because I haven't studied long enough. All I know is that SRBR's publications tickle my spidey sense BS meter a little bit. Now that I've verified myself they're playing fast and loose with some of their scientific research, it's going to be difficult for me to trust anything they say. It would take less time than you've already spent promoting SRBR links in this thread alone to go verify a few of the sketchy citations I called out explicitly. Have you tried to verify the problems I called out? Why blindly trust experts that mislead?
- throw0101a 6y ago
  We live in the post-Gutenberg world and I don't have time to research every topic in every specialization. I do not have time to read the IPCC's entire climate change report, so will maybe look at the Abstract or Conclusion. See also experts on COVID-19, vaccinations, and GMO foods. A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be "well I like later sunsets". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so anyway because that's what the expert consensus is. The various Chronobiologist and Sleep Experts are putting forward (consensus?) statements that Standard Time is best, so I'll follow that. If you want to dig into the various Societies' position papers on DST/ST have at it. HN has all sorts of disagreements on all sorts of topic, and this may be another one of them. I put forward these links as perhaps a starting point, and will not claim that they are an end point. If you want to argue against PhDs and say it's Snake Oil, I'm not going to contend it as I haven't put in the work (perhaps like you have). I have been curious about DST (and time) for a while, especially since the IT drama of the DST time change during the Bush years, but the specific subject of DST popped up again last year due to the op-ed by the Canadian Society for Chronobiology: * https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-the-clock-on-daylight-savings-why-standard-time-all-year/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-th... If you think it's Snake Oil feel free to talk with the authors who work at various Canadian universities: * https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian * https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/ https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/ * https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/Tami-Martino https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/T...