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I love the revolution that FreeCAD BIM and rest of https://community.osarch.org https://community.osarch.org promises. When I'm going to find an architect, tha

by tikej 6y ago

I love the revolution that FreeCAD BIM and rest of https://community.osarch.org https://community.osarch.org promises. When I'm going to find an architect, that's going to make a project of my house, I will specifically look for companies that use FOSS software, even though it probably will narrow pool of available contractors by a lot. I mean it is going to be MY HOUSE, something I plan to live in for many years (in my case I like to wait longer, build a house exactly the way I want it, and live for the rest of life in it). I want to buy project and "own" the project in a sense to be able to open it and modify. I also want to be able to simulate the heck out of MY future home before it's build. Using fast computers we have today I can try different sizes, shapes and properties of windows, walls and doors, adjust heating, cooling, plumbing, airflow, home automations and countless other things. I can see how the sun would enter the home (https://floyd.lbl.gov/radiance/ https://floyd.lbl.gov/radiance/) before foundations are laid. Sure, most people don't want to do that and that's okay. Most people also don't want to look at the source of programs they are using. I do and even when I don't, I love to have this possibility open. I understand, that so far Autodesk dominated the architecture software, but since they are moving/moved to subscription-based plans I hope that more and more architects will move away from subscription-based software. For their own good. I wouldn't gamble tools of my trade on something that can be taken away from me any moment and hope they also wouldn't. FreeCAD BIM & company work to make it possible and for that I am very grateful. It would be great if in next decades we would have something like open source catalogue of great solutions in home building.

dudus 6y ago
I understand the reasoning but I think any architect not using the absolute best tools available to them at any given time is shooting themselves in the foot. Costs associated with subscriptions are negligible for full time professionals. I think the rise of FreeCad is good for amateurs or part-time architects, and I hope one day it can rival others in the industry, like blender did for modeling, sculpting, composing and FXs. But when it comes to BIM, I'd rather have an architect that uses Autocad than one that uses subpar tools.
- fsloth 6y ago
  Autocad is not really a good example of a 'pro' tool in the sense that it would necessarily signal quality. Sure it's old and its DWG format is the market leading proprietary black box blob format. It does not have any features though that would make the design for he house to be of better quality than with any other drafting tool. Revit is probably closer to what you meant, but I have no idea how the quality of the drawing tool would affect the quality of the architects output. Construction design tools are all more or less old and crufty. For the love of god, someone please disrupt the industry. The domain is shallow but complex. Open source is probably not the answer - but open tools most certainly won't hurt.
- person8645 6y ago
  You’re right on but I would like to add in data interoperability. Revit is the standard and the 2700/year is nothing compared to paying 25-50/hour to retrain employees. But Revit doesn’t even open its own files from the past. If you built a building in Revit 2015, you need that exact version to keep using the model for maintenance and repairs. We all have a cascade of versions from our first project to the current year. Further, integrating structural and mechanical engineering into the BIM process is great but all three firms (or more for larger or more complex projects) must be on the same version to share files. Insanity. I now use ArchiCAD which is focused on Open IFC as the interchange format. It’s not perfect but it’s a good step. Once data interchange works then mixing in more specialized tools for certain tasks becomes easier so FreeCAD wouldn’t have to compete with the entire Revit toolset all at once.
  - eldados 6y ago
    That is not correct. You can open old files with a newer version of Revit, it will upgrade your file to the current version you are using (though not always a smooth process on large files), what you can’t do is open a newer files with an older version of Revit, regardless if it’s one or five versions different. This, for me, is absolutely wrong for a software company to do, only so they can keep you on subscription! Still waiting for the “Revit killer” app, but sadly FreeCAD is not it.
person8645 6y ago
I'm an architect and I have a few thoughts to offer to possibly help your thinking about your future dream home. First up is I would strongly encourage you to keep all the pieces of the project separate in your thinking. In residential construction you're buying a printed drawing set and printed specification manual with architectural stamps on it - for commercial and high end construction, the product can be a BIM model but residential architects won't have experience delivering that product so it will take some research. The contractor is providing physical materials arranged into a house matching the plans and specs from the architect. Just to give you an understanding of the precise basis of the current process, the dominant contract under which owner-architect relationships is governed is the B101 (https://content.aia.org/sites/default/files/2017-04/B101_2017%20sample.pdf https://content.aia.org/sites/default/files/2017-04/B101_201...) with some more sophisticated relationships described here https://www.aia.org/articles/210481-selecting-the-right-owner-architect-agreeme https://www.aia.org/articles/210481-selecting-the-right-owne... . The legal standard for owner-contractor relationships is the A101 https://help.aiacontracts.org/public/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Preview_A101-2017.pdf https://help.aiacontracts.org/public/wp-content/uploads/2020... The A101 and B101 together implicitly create the architect contractor relationship through drawings and specifications. You can and should take as much control as you want over that process but just have it clear in your mind what the products are. The house you're going to live in will not be better or worse based on the means of creation but rather the product. Some methods will give you a better end result more efficiently, but many paths will lead to a wonderful, high quality home that you is exactly how you want. What you will gain by controlling means of creation is the ability to control the drawings in the future if you want to make changes or repairs. BIM models are now delivered to clients in commercial projects because they offer great power for maintenance and energy use control in the future. Relating to your interest in simulation and generative design: The easiest way to get into generative design right now is Rhino with Grasshopper. If you're primarily interested in energy simulation then adding in the DIVA plugin would help too. Grasshopper's built-in functions can handle the geometry simulation already. Grasshopper support Python as well, if you're fluent. Revit + Dynamo is relevant due to Revit's market dominance. Those are the standards to which FreeCAD's tools will be held, both in ease of use and power of output. Additionally, any unbiased rendering engine can simulate daylight for you. I'm not aware of anyone using FreeCAD, but it's on my radar as something to look into over time. I currently professionally use Archicad, I have used Revit, and I have used Rhino and AutoCAD. Training on new software is very time consuming and switching for a single project would guarantee a loss for the architect if the traditional 10-12% of construction cost is used as the fee. If any of my firms had to use a new software and make money on a single project the cost would be about double. I would suggest you aim at working with someone local to you since there are such wide differences between how things are done in different markets. Also try to get the contractor and architect on board early and together if you want the most control on the outcome. In commercial construction that's "design build" or "integrated project delivery", more or less. It will be hard to achieve that integration in residential construction but money talks and if you offer to pay the architect hourly and pay the contractor hourly for pre-construction services then you have a chance of achieving you dream process, but at a higher cost. I wish more of the industry worked how you envision. I'm hoping to work toward that goal myself. Good luck when it eventually happens for you!

by tikej 6y ago

dudus 6y ago

I understand the reasoning but I think any architect not using the absolute best tools available to them at any given time is shooting themselves in the foot. Costs associated with subscriptions are negligible for full time professionals. I think the rise of FreeCad is good for amateurs or part-time architects, and I hope one day it can rival others in the industry, like blender did for modeling, sculpting, composing and FXs. But when it comes to BIM, I'd rather have an architect that uses Autocad than one that uses subpar tools.

fsloth 6y ago
Autocad is not really a good example of a 'pro' tool in the sense that it would necessarily signal quality. Sure it's old and its DWG format is the market leading proprietary black box blob format. It does not have any features though that would make the design for he house to be of better quality than with any other drafting tool. Revit is probably closer to what you meant, but I have no idea how the quality of the drawing tool would affect the quality of the architects output. Construction design tools are all more or less old and crufty. For the love of god, someone please disrupt the industry. The domain is shallow but complex. Open source is probably not the answer - but open tools most certainly won't hurt.
person8645 6y ago
You’re right on but I would like to add in data interoperability. Revit is the standard and the 2700/year is nothing compared to paying 25-50/hour to retrain employees. But Revit doesn’t even open its own files from the past. If you built a building in Revit 2015, you need that exact version to keep using the model for maintenance and repairs. We all have a cascade of versions from our first project to the current year. Further, integrating structural and mechanical engineering into the BIM process is great but all three firms (or more for larger or more complex projects) must be on the same version to share files. Insanity. I now use ArchiCAD which is focused on Open IFC as the interchange format. It’s not perfect but it’s a good step. Once data interchange works then mixing in more specialized tools for certain tasks becomes easier so FreeCAD wouldn’t have to compete with the entire Revit toolset all at once.
- eldados 6y ago
  That is not correct. You can open old files with a newer version of Revit, it will upgrade your file to the current version you are using (though not always a smooth process on large files), what you can’t do is open a newer files with an older version of Revit, regardless if it’s one or five versions different. This, for me, is absolutely wrong for a software company to do, only so they can keep you on subscription! Still waiting for the “Revit killer” app, but sadly FreeCAD is not it.

person8645 6y ago

I'm an architect and I have a few thoughts to offer to possibly help your thinking about your future dream home. First up is I would strongly encourage you to keep all the pieces of the project separate in your thinking. In residential construction you're buying a printed drawing set and printed specification manual with architectural stamps on it - for commercial and high end construction, the product can be a BIM model but residential architects won't have experience delivering that product so it will take some research. The contractor is providing physical materials arranged into a house matching the plans and specs from the architect. Just to give you an understanding of the precise basis of the current process, the dominant contract under which owner-architect relationships is governed is the B101 (https://content.aia.org/sites/default/files/2017-04/B101_2017%20sample.pdf https://content.aia.org/sites/default/files/2017-04/B101_201...) with some more sophisticated relationships described here https://www.aia.org/articles/210481-selecting-the-right-owner-architect-agreeme https://www.aia.org/articles/210481-selecting-the-right-owne... . The legal standard for owner-contractor relationships is the A101 https://help.aiacontracts.org/public/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Preview_A101-2017.pdf https://help.aiacontracts.org/public/wp-content/uploads/2020... The A101 and B101 together implicitly create the architect contractor relationship through drawings and specifications. You can and should take as much control as you want over that process but just have it clear in your mind what the products are. The house you're going to live in will not be better or worse based on the means of creation but rather the product. Some methods will give you a better end result more efficiently, but many paths will lead to a wonderful, high quality home that you is exactly how you want. What you will gain by controlling means of creation is the ability to control the drawings in the future if you want to make changes or repairs. BIM models are now delivered to clients in commercial projects because they offer great power for maintenance and energy use control in the future. Relating to your interest in simulation and generative design: The easiest way to get into generative design right now is Rhino with Grasshopper. If you're primarily interested in energy simulation then adding in the DIVA plugin would help too. Grasshopper's built-in functions can handle the geometry simulation already. Grasshopper support Python as well, if you're fluent. Revit + Dynamo is relevant due to Revit's market dominance. Those are the standards to which FreeCAD's tools will be held, both in ease of use and power of output. Additionally, any unbiased rendering engine can simulate daylight for you. I'm not aware of anyone using FreeCAD, but it's on my radar as something to look into over time. I currently professionally use Archicad, I have used Revit, and I have used Rhino and AutoCAD. Training on new software is very time consuming and switching for a single project would guarantee a loss for the architect if the traditional 10-12% of construction cost is used as the fee. If any of my firms had to use a new software and make money on a single project the cost would be about double. I would suggest you aim at working with someone local to you since there are such wide differences between how things are done in different markets. Also try to get the contractor and architect on board early and together if you want the most control on the outcome. In commercial construction that's "design build" or "integrated project delivery", more or less. It will be hard to achieve that integration in residential construction but money talks and if you offer to pay the architect hourly and pay the contractor hourly for pre-construction services then you have a chance of achieving you dream process, but at a higher cost. I wish more of the industry worked how you envision. I'm hoping to work toward that goal myself. Good luck when it eventually happens for you!