5 ms·

Can we get rid of timse zone and leap seconds too?

imglorp 6y ago
If you don't want to deal with leaps at the leaf level, they are largely absorbed by most cloud hosts and NTPDs these days. The general idea is they'll smear a leap second over a whole day or more so most applications don't see it. People that do care about a clock second being a few microseconds +/- can still do it themselves. https://developers.google.com/time/smear https://developers.google.com/time/smear https://docs.ntpsec.org/latest/leapsmear.html https://docs.ntpsec.org/latest/leapsmear.html
- toast0 6y ago
  Becareful with this. If all your ntp sources don't do the same thing, your clock can oscillate between sources.
peterpost2 6y ago
Those or needed though
tinus_hn 6y ago
No, we can’t.
thdrdt 6y ago
You already can get rid of time zones by only using UTC. But is is not very practical. The time zone communicates the part of the day in any place around the world.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > You already can get rid of time zones by only using UTC. UTC has leap seconds. You are thinking of TAI: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time
- ghaff 6y ago
  I suspect most people on the "abolish time zones" kick don't actually deal with people in other timezones very much. By knowing what timezone someone is in, I know instantly--without even consulting their calendar to find out what their usual working hours are--whether 2pm my time is a reasonable time to propose a meeting. Similarly, every time I travel to a city in a different timezone, I'm going to have to find out what usual business hours are, when dinner typically is (which admittedly varies a bit from country to country anyway), and so forth.
  - andromeduck 6y ago
    That sounds great until you have to look at people's calendars anyway and have to maintain conversions between more than two time zones, some of which also jump around due to DST and other bullshit.
throw0101a 6y ago
"So you want to abolish time zones": * https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8902765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8902765 (2015)
- Zak 6y ago
  While the article makes points that would be very good in a different era, if I want to know what time it is in Melbourne, I type "Melbourne time" into Google and it tells me. If I want to know whether it's daytime, I type "Melbourne sunrise" into Google and it tells me. Abolishing timezones is much more doable now than at any point since their invention, however the motivation to do it may also be reduced since I can also type things like "3PM Tokyo time in London" into Google
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > Abolishing timezones is much more doable now than at any point since their invention, I think you have it backwards: this is an argument for keeping timezones. If you we get rid of timezones, and everyone lives in UTC, then you already know the time in Melbourne: it's the same as where you live. But that does not tell you the human schedule in Melbourne. Right now, you can probably guess that business hours are "9-5" (09-17h), and so you can do a TZ lookup to see if people are in the office. If you get rid of TZs, and the time is 22:15Z, what does that mean elsewhere in the planet? Is that business hours for LA, NY, Paris, Mumbai, Tokyo, or Auckland? Where is that when people people are sleeping? We know what daylight hours in the local timezone are 8-8 (08-20h), so after doing a Google TZ search we know if someone is likely to be asleep or not.
    - Zak 6y ago
      Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Abolishing timezones would be more practical now than at any point in the past, but it's also less beneficial. It's more practical because you can almost instantly learn what hours the sun is up anywhere in the world, which lets you make an educated guess about whether people are awake or in the office (and this would work without timezones). It's less beneficial because you can almost instantly learn what time it is anywhere in the world (with timezones).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
BurningFrog 6y ago
We will inevitably, as we interact more and more with people anywhere on Earth. I think the way to transition is to use dual time (local & UTC) in software.
refurb 6y ago
What benefit does getting rid of timezones get us? Sure, it would be 9am GMT everywhere in the world, but it would still be "middle of the night" or "early morning" or "late evening" just the same. Everyone would just call that 9am GMT. If you lived in London and wanted to talk to someone in Hong Kong, you'd still need to figure out what time makes sense for both of you. It might be 12pm GMT in London and Hong Kong, but your Hong Kong colleague is fast asleep at 12pm.

If you don't want to deal with leaps at the leaf level, they are largely absorbed by most cloud hosts and NTPDs these days. The general idea is they'll smear a leap second over a whole day or more so most applications don't see it. People that do care about a clock second being a few microseconds +/- can still do it themselves. https://developers.google.com/time/smear https://developers.google.com/time/smear https://docs.ntpsec.org/latest/leapsmear.html https://docs.ntpsec.org/latest/leapsmear.html

toast0 6y ago
Becareful with this. If all your ntp sources don't do the same thing, your clock can oscillate between sources.

peterpost2 6y ago

Those or needed though

tinus_hn 6y ago

No, we can’t.

thdrdt 6y ago

You already can get rid of time zones by only using UTC. But is is not very practical. The time zone communicates the part of the day in any place around the world.

throw0101a 6y ago
> You already can get rid of time zones by only using UTC. UTC has leap seconds. You are thinking of TAI: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time
ghaff 6y ago
I suspect most people on the "abolish time zones" kick don't actually deal with people in other timezones very much. By knowing what timezone someone is in, I know instantly--without even consulting their calendar to find out what their usual working hours are--whether 2pm my time is a reasonable time to propose a meeting. Similarly, every time I travel to a city in a different timezone, I'm going to have to find out what usual business hours are, when dinner typically is (which admittedly varies a bit from country to country anyway), and so forth.
- andromeduck 6y ago
  That sounds great until you have to look at people's calendars anyway and have to maintain conversions between more than two time zones, some of which also jump around due to DST and other bullshit.

throw0101a 6y ago

"So you want to abolish time zones": * https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8902765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8902765 (2015)

Zak 6y ago
While the article makes points that would be very good in a different era, if I want to know what time it is in Melbourne, I type "Melbourne time" into Google and it tells me. If I want to know whether it's daytime, I type "Melbourne sunrise" into Google and it tells me. Abolishing timezones is much more doable now than at any point since their invention, however the motivation to do it may also be reduced since I can also type things like "3PM Tokyo time in London" into Google
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > Abolishing timezones is much more doable now than at any point since their invention, I think you have it backwards: this is an argument for keeping timezones. If you we get rid of timezones, and everyone lives in UTC, then you already know the time in Melbourne: it's the same as where you live. But that does not tell you the human schedule in Melbourne. Right now, you can probably guess that business hours are "9-5" (09-17h), and so you can do a TZ lookup to see if people are in the office. If you get rid of TZs, and the time is 22:15Z, what does that mean elsewhere in the planet? Is that business hours for LA, NY, Paris, Mumbai, Tokyo, or Auckland? Where is that when people people are sleeping? We know what daylight hours in the local timezone are 8-8 (08-20h), so after doing a Google TZ search we know if someone is likely to be asleep or not.
  - Zak 6y ago
    Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Abolishing timezones would be more practical now than at any point in the past, but it's also less beneficial. It's more practical because you can almost instantly learn what hours the sun is up anywhere in the world, which lets you make an educated guess about whether people are awake or in the office (and this would work without timezones). It's less beneficial because you can almost instantly learn what time it is anywhere in the world (with timezones).

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

BurningFrog 6y ago

We will inevitably, as we interact more and more with people anywhere on Earth. I think the way to transition is to use dual time (local & UTC) in software.

refurb 6y ago

What benefit does getting rid of timezones get us? Sure, it would be 9am GMT everywhere in the world, but it would still be "middle of the night" or "early morning" or "late evening" just the same. Everyone would just call that 9am GMT. If you lived in London and wanted to talk to someone in Hong Kong, you'd still need to figure out what time makes sense for both of you. It might be 12pm GMT in London and Hong Kong, but your Hong Kong colleague is fast asleep at 12pm.