6 ms·

> I do not have a fucking disorder! I just sleep differently! Ok, well, delayed phase sleep disorder is in fact a disorder that can lead to serious health prob

> I do not have a fucking disorder! I just sleep differently! Ok, well, delayed phase sleep disorder is in fact a disorder that can lead to serious health problems, even when people are allowed to self-select their sleep schedules. One proposal for the mechanism is that the circadian cycle is longer than 24 hours, which is in fact a medical problem. Society didn’t make the day 24 hours long. People without DPSD can generally fall asleep earlier than normal if they are sleep-deprived, but not people with DPSD. DPSD is very different than normal “night owl” syndrome, and is not an issue of society refusing to acknowledge different schedules. Are you sure you even have DPSD? > abusive and disrespectful and needlessly oppressive, no different from treating women or gay as inferior. Please please please please stop trivializing misogyny and homophobia with these ridiculous and narcissistic comparisons. “No different” - reeeeeaaaalllllly? Things are more difficult socially and professionally for people with DPSD. But they don’t get killed for it! You don’t have people musing about how DPSD are duplicitous wenches who are running our culture.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
don,t change the subject. you don,t know me. sleeping same hours every day is not a given.
- Schiendelman 6y ago
  Hey - this kind of reply isn’t welcome on HN. Can you try to engage productively next time?
  - rat9988 6y ago
    Why do you think you have more rights to decide about what is welcome in HN than him?
    - kekebo 6y ago
      I'm unable to read the flagged comment but there are formulated guidelines for submissions and comments on hn[0]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - CraneWorm 6y ago
        I recommend setting "show dead" in your HN settings.
  - mxmilkb 6y ago
    Yet the responder slates the original posters valid take by being reductive. Why not point out the cause of this reduction was started in this instance by the badly written press release? Surely not all night owl folk or all "DPSD" folk have something they, if society wasn't making expectations, works benefit from terming a "disorder"? To dive in with rhetoric that misses the whole category mistake (between not just the two overlapping but apparently unfortunately conflated terms, but those who see worth in holding their situation to be a disorder and those who don't) borders on disingenuous. Also, can one not imagine how the lives of people who naturally sleep like way(s) have been crushed with employment opportunities curtailed by major and minor parts of society thus far? To call that lack of imagination "ablist" does not admit that those who sleep differently all have a disorder.
slothtrop 6y ago
Add to the fact, adherence to a fixed advanced sleep/wake schedule can lead to significant circadian phase shifts in adults with DSPD -- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1389945711001651 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13899... People are downplaying the extent to which habits and preferences have an impact. Staying in bed late will shift forward your circadian rhythm. Blue-light emitting electronics will suppress melatonin at night and raise cortisol. Before the industrial revolution few were staying up all night regularly unless they were on night shift. Bright light and multimedia available at night changed.
- artifact_44 6y ago
  People also used to wake up at 1, stay awake for a couple hours, and then go back to sleep. https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shifts-maybe-we-should-again https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shi...
- rickisen 6y ago
  Wasn't the whole blue light thing disproved about a year ago? IIRC more light late at night disrupts the cycle, but the color of it was irrelevant.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    According to research I've found, red light will raise cortisol but not suppress melatonin production. Blue light does both. Don't remember which paper, but I found this one suggesting that blue light is worse than regular white light (which includes the blue spectrum) at suppressing melatonin: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-079X.2001.310410.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-079X....
  - rossnordby 6y ago
    If I'm not mistaken, that was research in mice. Mice are nocturnal and do not likely have the same entrainment patterns with respect to blue (sky) light. There are still valuable things that can be learned from that kind of research, but the popular coverage really missed the mark by directly extrapolating from research in mice to human circadian rhythms.
ordu 6y ago
> Please please please please stop trivializing misogyny and homophobia with these ridiculous and narcissistic comparisons. “No different” - reeeeeaaaalllllly? Things are more difficult socially and professionally for people with DPSD. Yeah, they are different. But not completely different. It is hard to be understanding to a social norm, when that social norms are responsible for a life full of mornings when I want to sleep, but instead I drag myself out of the bed and kick myself to keep awake. I mean, it is happened already, there is no way to undid damage done. It is happening now, and forgotmypw17 shows us the expected reaction to a proposition to find another way to make some people to conform with social norms even when their physiology doesn't want it. I'm not saying that his attitude is constructive, rational, or the best possible, or even acceptable, but you'll get a lot of it, if you keep saying to people "we'll find a way to make you normal". (It is mine reaction also: who do you think you are, to believe that you are more normal than me?! To write social norms ignoring my needs? To force me to conform to that stupid social norms? To make me think that I'm lazy because I cannot wake up in the morning, I have no will because I'm sleepy till 11:00, or in some other ways inferior? It is hard to not speak my mind in that style, because I hate those norms from the school. Now I'm 40, and my hate stewed for decades.). > Society didn’t make the day 24 hours long. It did. Maybe 200 years ago 24 hours long day was not a society's fault, but now it is. We have electricity now and electrical lights. One could be perfectly well and functioning even at night. Just some people think that if their sleep cycle aligned with Earth's rotations, it makes them special and superior.
- NeutronStar 6y ago
  I'm sure the sun's light has no bearings on biology.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  > who do you think you are, to believe that you are more normal than me?! If an overwhelmingly large proportion of a population exhibits tendency A and a smaller group tendency B, we describe the first group as normal. It’s not a value judgement so much as it is a useful description using a word from the dictionary.
  - 6y ago
varispeed 6y ago
It is very easy to find your own cycle. I found that my natural hours for sleep are from 3am to 9am. I can easily fall asleep when I go to bed say 2:45am and feel great when I wake up. If I try to go to sleep at 1am, it's pointless. I am too alert and have to get up and do things.
nitrogen 6y ago
But they don’t get killed for it! If they miss too much high school they can be arrested for truancy, they can be verbally and physically assaulted by parents or peers, find themselves completely ostracized from society and unable to find professional work that suits their skill level, etc. They face significant discrimination, harassment, and exclusion. If that doesn't kill them, they might just do the job themselves.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

forgotmypw17 6y ago

don,t change the subject. you don,t know me. sleeping same hours every day is not a given.

Schiendelman 6y ago
Hey - this kind of reply isn’t welcome on HN. Can you try to engage productively next time?
- rat9988 6y ago
  Why do you think you have more rights to decide about what is welcome in HN than him?
  - kekebo 6y ago
    I'm unable to read the flagged comment but there are formulated guidelines for submissions and comments on hn[0]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - CraneWorm 6y ago
      I recommend setting "show dead" in your HN settings.
- mxmilkb 6y ago
  Yet the responder slates the original posters valid take by being reductive. Why not point out the cause of this reduction was started in this instance by the badly written press release? Surely not all night owl folk or all "DPSD" folk have something they, if society wasn't making expectations, works benefit from terming a "disorder"? To dive in with rhetoric that misses the whole category mistake (between not just the two overlapping but apparently unfortunately conflated terms, but those who see worth in holding their situation to be a disorder and those who don't) borders on disingenuous. Also, can one not imagine how the lives of people who naturally sleep like way(s) have been crushed with employment opportunities curtailed by major and minor parts of society thus far? To call that lack of imagination "ablist" does not admit that those who sleep differently all have a disorder.

slothtrop 6y ago

Add to the fact, adherence to a fixed advanced sleep/wake schedule can lead to significant circadian phase shifts in adults with DSPD -- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1389945711001651 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13899... People are downplaying the extent to which habits and preferences have an impact. Staying in bed late will shift forward your circadian rhythm. Blue-light emitting electronics will suppress melatonin at night and raise cortisol. Before the industrial revolution few were staying up all night regularly unless they were on night shift. Bright light and multimedia available at night changed.

artifact_44 6y ago
People also used to wake up at 1, stay awake for a couple hours, and then go back to sleep. https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shifts-maybe-we-should-again https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shi...
rickisen 6y ago
Wasn't the whole blue light thing disproved about a year ago? IIRC more light late at night disrupts the cycle, but the color of it was irrelevant.
- slothtrop 6y ago
  According to research I've found, red light will raise cortisol but not suppress melatonin production. Blue light does both. Don't remember which paper, but I found this one suggesting that blue light is worse than regular white light (which includes the blue spectrum) at suppressing melatonin: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-079X.2001.310410.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-079X....
- rossnordby 6y ago
  If I'm not mistaken, that was research in mice. Mice are nocturnal and do not likely have the same entrainment patterns with respect to blue (sky) light. There are still valuable things that can be learned from that kind of research, but the popular coverage really missed the mark by directly extrapolating from research in mice to human circadian rhythms.

ordu 6y ago

> Please please please please stop trivializing misogyny and homophobia with these ridiculous and narcissistic comparisons. “No different” - reeeeeaaaalllllly? Things are more difficult socially and professionally for people with DPSD. Yeah, they are different. But not completely different. It is hard to be understanding to a social norm, when that social norms are responsible for a life full of mornings when I want to sleep, but instead I drag myself out of the bed and kick myself to keep awake. I mean, it is happened already, there is no way to undid damage done. It is happening now, and forgotmypw17 shows us the expected reaction to a proposition to find another way to make some people to conform with social norms even when their physiology doesn't want it. I'm not saying that his attitude is constructive, rational, or the best possible, or even acceptable, but you'll get a lot of it, if you keep saying to people "we'll find a way to make you normal". (It is mine reaction also: who do you think you are, to believe that you are more normal than me?! To write social norms ignoring my needs? To force me to conform to that stupid social norms? To make me think that I'm lazy because I cannot wake up in the morning, I have no will because I'm sleepy till 11:00, or in some other ways inferior? It is hard to not speak my mind in that style, because I hate those norms from the school. Now I'm 40, and my hate stewed for decades.). > Society didn’t make the day 24 hours long. It did. Maybe 200 years ago 24 hours long day was not a society's fault, but now it is. We have electricity now and electrical lights. One could be perfectly well and functioning even at night. Just some people think that if their sleep cycle aligned with Earth's rotations, it makes them special and superior.

NeutronStar 6y ago
I'm sure the sun's light has no bearings on biology.
sokoloff 6y ago
> who do you think you are, to believe that you are more normal than me?! If an overwhelmingly large proportion of a population exhibits tendency A and a smaller group tendency B, we describe the first group as normal. It’s not a value judgement so much as it is a useful description using a word from the dictionary.
- 6y ago

varispeed 6y ago

It is very easy to find your own cycle. I found that my natural hours for sleep are from 3am to 9am. I can easily fall asleep when I go to bed say 2:45am and feel great when I wake up. If I try to go to sleep at 1am, it's pointless. I am too alert and have to get up and do things.

nitrogen 6y ago

But they don’t get killed for it! If they miss too much high school they can be arrested for truancy, they can be verbally and physically assaulted by parents or peers, find themselves completely ostracized from society and unable to find professional work that suits their skill level, etc. They face significant discrimination, harassment, and exclusion. If that doesn't kill them, they might just do the job themselves.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]