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How would the consumer ever get to "vote" tho? There never was a year where Apple released a mediocre repairable phone and a slicker unrepairable phone, so the

How would the consumer ever get to "vote" tho? There never was a year where Apple released a mediocre repairable phone and a slicker unrepairable phone, so the vote has never happened.

gear54rus 6y ago
The first step of the process is to not buy anything apple recognizing there hardly ever was a company more hostile to user freedom both on software and hardware side.
- lokar 6y ago
  Apple is not a computer company. They are a consumer electronics company.
  - arvinsim 6y ago
    Is that relevant?
  - encom 6y ago
    They're barely even that. Apple is the expensive handbag company of consumer electronics. Something people buy to show off their wealth.
- taejavu 6y ago
  An alternative first step might be for other companies to make products that are as good as Apple’s.
  - gear54rus 6y ago
    It's happening every year on both desktop and mobile. You can't call walled gardens good sorry.
    - taejavu 6y ago
      Maybe you can’t, and that’s fine, but for most people the superior user experience delivered by that walled garden is more appealing than any alternative. I’m not defending Apple’s user-hostile practices, I’m just saying that if this situation is going to change by people voting with their wallets, it’ll be because of changes to things that matter to the masses, and not the (totally legitimate) philosophical concerns of technology enthusiasts.
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    Absolutely -- go push other companies to make an alternative. Or even better, go investigate how to build a phone and its software, in a way that gives you all the control and repairability you want. Maybe you'll find that it's harder than you think (as well to turn a profit) and there may be reasons why things are the way they are?
- Lio 6y ago
  So what’s the alternative? Google and giving up your privacy? You might be happy with that but I’m already “voting with my feet” on that matter. There are some independent Linux based offerings now but they’re immature and going that way would mean loosing support of some third party apps that I currently need. No manufacturer is offering a perfect or even good enough product right now. You end up compromising on something.
  - Yetanfou 6y ago
    > So what’s the alternative? Currently: a Google-free AOSP-based distribution on one of the hundreds of supported devices. In the future, hopefully: a free software mobile platform compatible with a range of hardware. Google-free Android is a thing, I've been using it for about 10 years now. I do not have a Google account, there is no 'Gapps' (Google Apps) on my devices, I do not use the 'Play Store' (which is a bit of a silly name for people who speak Dutch where the word 'Play' sounds like a Dutch slang term for toilet, 'plee'), I don't use Google Search directly (it is one of the engines used in my own Searx instance, next to DDG, Bing, Yahoo etc.), no Gmail (I host my own mail), no Google Docs (or whatever it is called today, Libreoffice Online works just fine for me, hosted on my own server), etc. Just try it for a change instead of giving up and giving either Apple or Google their pound of flesh. There is too much disinformation on the subject of mobile freedom, too much 'party politics'. There is a world outside of Apple and Google, why not give it a try instead of assuming it doesn't exist?
    - Lio 6y ago
      Which distribution would you recommend as a starting point? My assumption has not been that Google free Android doesn’t exist but that I’d need Google’s app store to run the third party apps I need. Specifically things it's stuff for firmware updates on stuff like Shimano Di2 or other hardware devices. Are third parties now officially supporting other alternative app stores? (Sorry about the questions but this is quite interesting.) Personally I’m thinking of moving towards a non-android Linux based phone and keeping an older iPhone for these updates.
      - 6y ago
- supernova87a 6y ago
  I think you have to acknowledge that you're part of a very specialized user group, and that your goals and requirements are very different from the general population. Is Apple to sell phones to you, or to the general population? Answer is obvious, isn't it? For the general population, making a tightly controlled (and simple) hardware and software environment makes more things possible -- overall -- to the users than absolute freedom does. It's a paradox -- by controlling things, they set the market for this product loose. You can see how it is a hard thing to manage to, and leads to users like you being unhappy. Linux gives incredible freedom to users, yet has very little market penetration. Not everyone wants to be able to side load apps, tweak their battery charging settings, and have their phone die because they did something wrong to it.
blihp 6y ago
You vote every time you choose to buy a product from company X or one of their competitors instead. Remember back when Apple made phones with smaller screens? They took notice when millions of consumers were buying Samsung/whatever devices instead with a key reason given being 'bigger screen'. Apple then started producing devices with bigger screens.
everly 6y ago
I realize we're talking about voting with dollars here but it's also possible that consumers could literally vote on (or push their representative to draft) legislation to address the issue. I'm not up-to-date on the John Deere right-to-repair litigation but seems like the concept is the same.

How would the consumer ever get to "vote" tho? There never was a year where Apple released a mediocre repairable phone and a slicker unrepairable phone, so the vote has never happened.

gear54rus 6y ago

The first step of the process is to not buy anything apple recognizing there hardly ever was a company more hostile to user freedom both on software and hardware side.

lokar 6y ago
Apple is not a computer company. They are a consumer electronics company.
- arvinsim 6y ago
  Is that relevant?
- encom 6y ago
  They're barely even that. Apple is the expensive handbag company of consumer electronics. Something people buy to show off their wealth.
taejavu 6y ago
An alternative first step might be for other companies to make products that are as good as Apple’s.
- gear54rus 6y ago
  It's happening every year on both desktop and mobile. You can't call walled gardens good sorry.
  - taejavu 6y ago
    Maybe you can’t, and that’s fine, but for most people the superior user experience delivered by that walled garden is more appealing than any alternative. I’m not defending Apple’s user-hostile practices, I’m just saying that if this situation is going to change by people voting with their wallets, it’ll be because of changes to things that matter to the masses, and not the (totally legitimate) philosophical concerns of technology enthusiasts.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  Absolutely -- go push other companies to make an alternative. Or even better, go investigate how to build a phone and its software, in a way that gives you all the control and repairability you want. Maybe you'll find that it's harder than you think (as well to turn a profit) and there may be reasons why things are the way they are?
Lio 6y ago
So what’s the alternative? Google and giving up your privacy? You might be happy with that but I’m already “voting with my feet” on that matter. There are some independent Linux based offerings now but they’re immature and going that way would mean loosing support of some third party apps that I currently need. No manufacturer is offering a perfect or even good enough product right now. You end up compromising on something.
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  > So what’s the alternative? Currently: a Google-free AOSP-based distribution on one of the hundreds of supported devices. In the future, hopefully: a free software mobile platform compatible with a range of hardware. Google-free Android is a thing, I've been using it for about 10 years now. I do not have a Google account, there is no 'Gapps' (Google Apps) on my devices, I do not use the 'Play Store' (which is a bit of a silly name for people who speak Dutch where the word 'Play' sounds like a Dutch slang term for toilet, 'plee'), I don't use Google Search directly (it is one of the engines used in my own Searx instance, next to DDG, Bing, Yahoo etc.), no Gmail (I host my own mail), no Google Docs (or whatever it is called today, Libreoffice Online works just fine for me, hosted on my own server), etc. Just try it for a change instead of giving up and giving either Apple or Google their pound of flesh. There is too much disinformation on the subject of mobile freedom, too much 'party politics'. There is a world outside of Apple and Google, why not give it a try instead of assuming it doesn't exist?
  - Lio 6y ago
    Which distribution would you recommend as a starting point? My assumption has not been that Google free Android doesn’t exist but that I’d need Google’s app store to run the third party apps I need. Specifically things it's stuff for firmware updates on stuff like Shimano Di2 or other hardware devices. Are third parties now officially supporting other alternative app stores? (Sorry about the questions but this is quite interesting.) Personally I’m thinking of moving towards a non-android Linux based phone and keeping an older iPhone for these updates.
    - 6y ago
supernova87a 6y ago
I think you have to acknowledge that you're part of a very specialized user group, and that your goals and requirements are very different from the general population. Is Apple to sell phones to you, or to the general population? Answer is obvious, isn't it? For the general population, making a tightly controlled (and simple) hardware and software environment makes more things possible -- overall -- to the users than absolute freedom does. It's a paradox -- by controlling things, they set the market for this product loose. You can see how it is a hard thing to manage to, and leads to users like you being unhappy. Linux gives incredible freedom to users, yet has very little market penetration. Not everyone wants to be able to side load apps, tweak their battery charging settings, and have their phone die because they did something wrong to it.

blihp 6y ago

You vote every time you choose to buy a product from company X or one of their competitors instead. Remember back when Apple made phones with smaller screens? They took notice when millions of consumers were buying Samsung/whatever devices instead with a key reason given being 'bigger screen'. Apple then started producing devices with bigger screens.

everly 6y ago

I realize we're talking about voting with dollars here but it's also possible that consumers could literally vote on (or push their representative to draft) legislation to address the issue. I'm not up-to-date on the John Deere right-to-repair litigation but seems like the concept is the same.