4 ms·

Maybe a decade ago, I read a story here on HN where somebody was analyzing a singer's audio to detect how close their pitch was, coming to the conclusion that t

Maybe a decade ago, I read a story here on HN where somebody was analyzing a singer's audio to detect how close their pitch was, coming to the conclusion that the root was spot on but other notes were slightly sharp or flat. Someone in the comments pointed out that the analysis was done assuming even temperament, and the singer was actually totally nailing just intonation. It's one of those anecdotes that has stuck with me since as a reminder to try to not get tunnel vision on a specific metric.

andi999 6y ago
Thats funny. I am generally surprised how singers actually practise with a piano player (which seems to be done here often), since the piano is equally tempered. Wouldnt it make more sense tonpractise with a violin player?
- toolslive 6y ago
  I don't think it really matters: the piano or violin just offer a reference notes the vocalist needs to be able to match. For example, even though the piano is a limited instrument (frequency wise) it's perfectly possible for a violin player to practice "against" a piano. In the end, whatever the violinist plays is never going to be perfect. There are basically 3strategies to cope with that: micro-adjustments (correcting), add vibrato (masking) and stop playing that note and move to another note.
- dri_ft 6y ago
  I mean in some sense yes, but more importantly, you probably want to practice with a harmony instrument, i.e. one that can play full chords, which probably means piano, guitar... I can't think of any such instruments where it's easy to tune on the fly as with a violin.
kzrdude 6y ago
It sounds like someone with a frequency measurement went to apply it to music without speaking with musicians. As long as they learned something eventually, I guess :)
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  Actually, the other way around really. Someone looked up the musical information and measured and found a discrepancy. Given that most western music does in fact use 12TET, the claimed "out of tune-ness" was reasonable to note. The problem is that there are cultures and genres of music that do not use 12TET. In the west these are rare, and many musicians would not know about this. But the measurer had the misfortune to be measuring music that did, and thus was incorrect.
  - powersnail 6y ago
    I think Just intonation, or an approximation to that, is what people are instinctively using, unless they are consciously tuning themselves to a piano. It sounds much more "in tune" to the ear, because of the nice ratios. It really wouldn't surprise me that raw recordings of many singers are in fact more just than equal temperament.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      This makes sense, but it would imply that they have "instinctively solved" the fundamental problems with modulation and harmony that just intonation creates. This seems unlikely.
      - elihu 6y ago
        Realistically, they probably just sing an approximation that's close to JI while unconsciously allowing the pitch to drift a little bit so that comma pumps aren't a problem. That seems more plausible than that people naturally sing in an artificial tuning based on repeated multiplication of the twelvth root of two, even if that's the musical context that people are most exposed to these days. Those whole-number ratios are just too good to resist, even if a singer isn't fully aware of what they're doing.
      - kmill 6y ago
        You might find the book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony" interesting, which presents a reasonably strong case that pre-1900s western music treated enharmonics as distinct pitches ("enharmonic" in the old sense seems to have referred to the distinction). Singers knew about major and minor semitones, and they knew where to place commas. Though, no one seemed to go as far as doing full just intonation due to various kinds of obvious and non-obvious impracticalities. All in all, I think it's safe to say that string players and singers prefer slightly flatter thirds in harmonies than 12-EDO -- which is what the above amounts to -- and deal with commas accordingly.

andi999 6y ago

Thats funny. I am generally surprised how singers actually practise with a piano player (which seems to be done here often), since the piano is equally tempered. Wouldnt it make more sense tonpractise with a violin player?

toolslive 6y ago
I don't think it really matters: the piano or violin just offer a reference notes the vocalist needs to be able to match. For example, even though the piano is a limited instrument (frequency wise) it's perfectly possible for a violin player to practice "against" a piano. In the end, whatever the violinist plays is never going to be perfect. There are basically 3strategies to cope with that: micro-adjustments (correcting), add vibrato (masking) and stop playing that note and move to another note.
dri_ft 6y ago
I mean in some sense yes, but more importantly, you probably want to practice with a harmony instrument, i.e. one that can play full chords, which probably means piano, guitar... I can't think of any such instruments where it's easy to tune on the fly as with a violin.

kzrdude 6y ago

It sounds like someone with a frequency measurement went to apply it to music without speaking with musicians. As long as they learned something eventually, I guess :)

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
Actually, the other way around really. Someone looked up the musical information and measured and found a discrepancy. Given that most western music does in fact use 12TET, the claimed "out of tune-ness" was reasonable to note. The problem is that there are cultures and genres of music that do not use 12TET. In the west these are rare, and many musicians would not know about this. But the measurer had the misfortune to be measuring music that did, and thus was incorrect.
- powersnail 6y ago
  I think Just intonation, or an approximation to that, is what people are instinctively using, unless they are consciously tuning themselves to a piano. It sounds much more "in tune" to the ear, because of the nice ratios. It really wouldn't surprise me that raw recordings of many singers are in fact more just than equal temperament.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    This makes sense, but it would imply that they have "instinctively solved" the fundamental problems with modulation and harmony that just intonation creates. This seems unlikely.
    - elihu 6y ago
      Realistically, they probably just sing an approximation that's close to JI while unconsciously allowing the pitch to drift a little bit so that comma pumps aren't a problem. That seems more plausible than that people naturally sing in an artificial tuning based on repeated multiplication of the twelvth root of two, even if that's the musical context that people are most exposed to these days. Those whole-number ratios are just too good to resist, even if a singer isn't fully aware of what they're doing.
    - kmill 6y ago
      You might find the book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony" interesting, which presents a reasonably strong case that pre-1900s western music treated enharmonics as distinct pitches ("enharmonic" in the old sense seems to have referred to the distinction). Singers knew about major and minor semitones, and they knew where to place commas. Though, no one seemed to go as far as doing full just intonation due to various kinds of obvious and non-obvious impracticalities. All in all, I think it's safe to say that string players and singers prefer slightly flatter thirds in harmonies than 12-EDO -- which is what the above amounts to -- and deal with commas accordingly.