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> It's because I don't want your advice on how to make the pain go away or to deal with it Banana_giraffe isn't alone. I had chronic obstructive sleep apnea a

> It's because I don't want your advice on how to make the pain go away or to deal with it Banana_giraffe isn't alone. I had chronic obstructive sleep apnea and I quickly got tired of unsolicited woo-woo illogical suggestions to treat it. Exercise and meditation doesn't fix problems with bone structure.

Retric 6y ago
Sleep apnea is like knee pain in that loosing significant weight either makes a huge difference, or does nothing. Unfortunately, if it doesn’t work for you people will still constantly bring it up.
- treeman79 6y ago
  As someone who struggles with weight and chronic conditions. There are low hanging fruit. Dropping weight, removing processed foods, exercise are your bare minimum of what everyone should try for solving Medical problems. Now a lot of problems can be solved this way. Just not everything. I suffered exercise intolerance for decades. No mater how hard I tried I would need two weeks of recovery after any work out. Turned out I had underlying problems that none of the what I mentioned above were going to fix. However I still feel strongly that if I’m going to complain to a doctor, I should be doing my part with diet and exercise.
  - failrate 6y ago
    I have a similar exercise intolerance, could you enlighten me to what the underlying problem was?
    - treeman79 6y ago
      Two issues. IIH and Sjogrens. Idiopathic intracranial hypertension Also called: pseudotumor cerebri. Description A condition that occurs when pressure inside the skull increases for no obvious reason.
      - failrate 6y ago
        Thank you for sharing. I'm currently pursuing a POTS evaluation.
        treeman79 6y ago
        Welcome. Had POTs quite bad. Spinal tap gave a year of relief. Now I use Diamox. Huge improvement
  - DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
    My spouse has something similar, do you mind sharing what the underlying problem was?
    - treeman79 6y ago
      Two issues. IIH and Sjogrens.
centimeter 6y ago
Exercise can help fix excessive body fat, which contributed to my apnea. It’s actually pretty fascinating how many common and sometimes serious medical problems are known to be fixable with “woo-woo” advice like “don’t eat like shit” (advice that 95% of people don’t follow). E.g. type 2 diabetes and refractory epilepsy now have purely dietary interventions as front-line treatments. We have weak evidence that this will probably work for many other common diseases. But just 10 years ago you would probably have been accused of “woo-woo” for making this claim about epilepsy or diabetes.
- banana_giraffe 6y ago
  And perhaps this is a thing everyone deals with to some extent for one thing or another: I have a very strictly controlled diet. It's the result of a lot of testing, and discussions with my doctors. Most people that are around me enough get a sense of this. Most don't know the depth of it. What gets old is when I deviate from the diet, by say having a glass of beer at a social function, it's a big deal. Everyone's concerned about me, which I appreciate, but I have to justify the beer by pointing out how it fits into my diet, and how I've planned for this beer. I have had to pull up my diet plan on more than one occasion to make someone happy. If I was known to have problems adhering to my diet, and asked for this sort of help, then fine. I don't have that, and I've tried to tell people that I know what my diet is. I try to be nice about it, and ask people to just let me be. Instead I get to defend every beer I have. So, now I'm the teetotaler in the office. It's just easier than the alternative. But it's damned annoying.
  - centimeter 6y ago
    If your diet plan allows beer it’s probably not very effective. Doctors aren’t going to be very helpful here - 95% are incompetent. You should probably try to come up with a good and efficiently computable a priori dietary strategy (e.g. evolutionary ancestral diet, with the goal of minimizing the chance of running into defective metabolic pathways). I can’t think of any such strategies I’m aware of that would allow beer.
    - 6y ago
diob 6y ago
I hear that. It took a reluctantly ordered sleep study for doctors to even take my case seriously (since I was in incredible shape). Then when I picked up the machine they said they were expecting someone morbidly obese. Sometimes people just get a bad luck of the draw, and no amount of "hard work" can fix genetics.
peteretep 6y ago
Counter-point: the number of people with a sleep disorder who are determined to try every folk remedy they can get their hands on before seeing an actual doctor
akulbe 6y ago
One of the things that was a revelation to me about sleep apnea… it's not CAUSED by your weight. Here, I'd been carrying that around for years, and feeling like a failure. I brought it up to my sleep doctor. I said I thought I had it because of my weight, he laughed at it. He said, "If you are overweight, that can exacerbate apnea, but IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT CAUSE IT. That's absurd." My sleep doctor is suuuuper fit, and very lean. An avid runner. He said that he has a VERY bad case of sleep apnea. I was floored! He said you either have it or you don't.
- JauntyHatAngle 6y ago
  I've heard different from sleep doctors, that is, it can be bad luck from genetics where weight is not the main (or even not at all) a factor, but for others it's largely caused by fat deposits blocking the upper airway, and with weight loss it entirely goes away. So case by case?
- PaulKeeble 6y ago
  I had a doctor in the sleep clinic tell me if I lost 10KG my sleep apnea would be cured. I lost 15KG and my prescription went up 5%. When the doctors treating you believe that nonsense and then are surprised it did not work there isn't much hope for the public. This myth actually comes from the doctors.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    Weight loss is not curative, but it is a useful. About 2/3rds to 3/4ths of people with obstructive sleep apnoea are obese. https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/obstructive-sleep-apnoea-syndrome/management/management/ https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/obstructive-sleep-apnoea-synd... > These recommendations are based on the Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network (SIGN) guideline Management of obstructive sleep apnoea/hypopnoea syndrome (OSAHS) in adults [SIGN, 2003]. > Advice on weight loss and exercise > Expert opinion in a clinical review article from the British Medical Journal, Obstructive sleep apnoea, concluded that weight reduction programmes are not to be thought of as curative but rather as adjunctive for people with obstructive sleep apnoea syndrome (OSAS) [Greenstone and Hack, 2014]. > A meta-analysis of 5 small studies (n = 129) found a reduction in the apnoea/hypopnoea index (AHI) by –6.27 events/hour following supervised exercise training. This demonstrated a reduction in the severity of sleep apnoea (with minimal changes in body weight) with exercise [Iftikhar et al, 2014].
cko 6y ago
I had it too. I finally got double jaw surgery. And changed to sleeping on my side. In my case I had to tell people because I was quitting my job to have the procedure done. Some opinions from people in the healthcare field (nurses, etc) said I didn't need surgery because I wasn't overweight or old. Well they weren't maxillofacial surgeons.
lenkite 6y ago
Neither exercise nor meditation worked for me, but very intense throat exercises alleviated the condition. I also took up singing. Now, I daily follow a 5 minute intense throat exercise before going to beg until my neck and throat aches. Only then I hit the pillow. People suffering from sleep apnea seem to have bad throat muscles and big tongues.
- treeman79 6y ago
  Sounds right to me. Also if I’m in a flare, those items will swell noticeably
- thking 6y ago
  Would you mind sharing the excersises that helped?
  - lenkite 6y ago
    The most helpful one is making the top of your tongue meet the roof of your mouth and pulling it backward as far as you are able. Simultaneously move your jaw down forcing it as much down as possible slowly, while not losing roof-tongue contact. Hold the stretch, repeat the same for a couple of minutes and your muscles will ache. This also unclogs your sinus, so don't be surprised if you need to swallow or clear your nose. Also, don't do the full stretch at the first try. Warm up a bit first. There are several others, but take too much time to describe here. You can research online. This is not obscure information. My doctor gave me a writeup. Please note they take a few days to take effect. Personally, I found them effective within a week, but YMMV. Singing also helps - less effective but more fun (well, for you, if not others who will wince).
    - meowster 6y ago
      I am interested in researching it online, but what search terms should I use? I've never heard of this before. Thank you.
      - 6y ago

Retric 6y ago

Sleep apnea is like knee pain in that loosing significant weight either makes a huge difference, or does nothing. Unfortunately, if it doesn’t work for you people will still constantly bring it up.

treeman79 6y ago
As someone who struggles with weight and chronic conditions. There are low hanging fruit. Dropping weight, removing processed foods, exercise are your bare minimum of what everyone should try for solving Medical problems. Now a lot of problems can be solved this way. Just not everything. I suffered exercise intolerance for decades. No mater how hard I tried I would need two weeks of recovery after any work out. Turned out I had underlying problems that none of the what I mentioned above were going to fix. However I still feel strongly that if I’m going to complain to a doctor, I should be doing my part with diet and exercise.
- failrate 6y ago
  I have a similar exercise intolerance, could you enlighten me to what the underlying problem was?
  - treeman79 6y ago
    Two issues. IIH and Sjogrens. Idiopathic intracranial hypertension Also called: pseudotumor cerebri. Description A condition that occurs when pressure inside the skull increases for no obvious reason.
    - failrate 6y ago
      Thank you for sharing. I'm currently pursuing a POTS evaluation.
      - treeman79 6y ago
        Welcome. Had POTs quite bad. Spinal tap gave a year of relief. Now I use Diamox. Huge improvement
- DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
  My spouse has something similar, do you mind sharing what the underlying problem was?
  - treeman79 6y ago
    Two issues. IIH and Sjogrens.

centimeter 6y ago

Exercise can help fix excessive body fat, which contributed to my apnea. It’s actually pretty fascinating how many common and sometimes serious medical problems are known to be fixable with “woo-woo” advice like “don’t eat like shit” (advice that 95% of people don’t follow). E.g. type 2 diabetes and refractory epilepsy now have purely dietary interventions as front-line treatments. We have weak evidence that this will probably work for many other common diseases. But just 10 years ago you would probably have been accused of “woo-woo” for making this claim about epilepsy or diabetes.

banana_giraffe 6y ago
And perhaps this is a thing everyone deals with to some extent for one thing or another: I have a very strictly controlled diet. It's the result of a lot of testing, and discussions with my doctors. Most people that are around me enough get a sense of this. Most don't know the depth of it. What gets old is when I deviate from the diet, by say having a glass of beer at a social function, it's a big deal. Everyone's concerned about me, which I appreciate, but I have to justify the beer by pointing out how it fits into my diet, and how I've planned for this beer. I have had to pull up my diet plan on more than one occasion to make someone happy. If I was known to have problems adhering to my diet, and asked for this sort of help, then fine. I don't have that, and I've tried to tell people that I know what my diet is. I try to be nice about it, and ask people to just let me be. Instead I get to defend every beer I have. So, now I'm the teetotaler in the office. It's just easier than the alternative. But it's damned annoying.
- centimeter 6y ago
  If your diet plan allows beer it’s probably not very effective. Doctors aren’t going to be very helpful here - 95% are incompetent. You should probably try to come up with a good and efficiently computable a priori dietary strategy (e.g. evolutionary ancestral diet, with the goal of minimizing the chance of running into defective metabolic pathways). I can’t think of any such strategies I’m aware of that would allow beer.
  - 6y ago

diob 6y ago

I hear that. It took a reluctantly ordered sleep study for doctors to even take my case seriously (since I was in incredible shape). Then when I picked up the machine they said they were expecting someone morbidly obese. Sometimes people just get a bad luck of the draw, and no amount of "hard work" can fix genetics.

peteretep 6y ago

Counter-point: the number of people with a sleep disorder who are determined to try every folk remedy they can get their hands on before seeing an actual doctor

akulbe 6y ago

One of the things that was a revelation to me about sleep apnea… it's not CAUSED by your weight. Here, I'd been carrying that around for years, and feeling like a failure. I brought it up to my sleep doctor. I said I thought I had it because of my weight, he laughed at it. He said, "If you are overweight, that can exacerbate apnea, but IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT CAUSE IT. That's absurd." My sleep doctor is suuuuper fit, and very lean. An avid runner. He said that he has a VERY bad case of sleep apnea. I was floored! He said you either have it or you don't.

JauntyHatAngle 6y ago
I've heard different from sleep doctors, that is, it can be bad luck from genetics where weight is not the main (or even not at all) a factor, but for others it's largely caused by fat deposits blocking the upper airway, and with weight loss it entirely goes away. So case by case?
PaulKeeble 6y ago
I had a doctor in the sleep clinic tell me if I lost 10KG my sleep apnea would be cured. I lost 15KG and my prescription went up 5%. When the doctors treating you believe that nonsense and then are surprised it did not work there isn't much hope for the public. This myth actually comes from the doctors.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Weight loss is not curative, but it is a useful. About 2/3rds to 3/4ths of people with obstructive sleep apnoea are obese. https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/obstructive-sleep-apnoea-syndrome/management/management/ https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/obstructive-sleep-apnoea-synd... > These recommendations are based on the Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network (SIGN) guideline Management of obstructive sleep apnoea/hypopnoea syndrome (OSAHS) in adults [SIGN, 2003]. > Advice on weight loss and exercise > Expert opinion in a clinical review article from the British Medical Journal, Obstructive sleep apnoea, concluded that weight reduction programmes are not to be thought of as curative but rather as adjunctive for people with obstructive sleep apnoea syndrome (OSAS) [Greenstone and Hack, 2014]. > A meta-analysis of 5 small studies (n = 129) found a reduction in the apnoea/hypopnoea index (AHI) by –6.27 events/hour following supervised exercise training. This demonstrated a reduction in the severity of sleep apnoea (with minimal changes in body weight) with exercise [Iftikhar et al, 2014].

cko 6y ago

I had it too. I finally got double jaw surgery. And changed to sleeping on my side. In my case I had to tell people because I was quitting my job to have the procedure done. Some opinions from people in the healthcare field (nurses, etc) said I didn't need surgery because I wasn't overweight or old. Well they weren't maxillofacial surgeons.

lenkite 6y ago

Neither exercise nor meditation worked for me, but very intense throat exercises alleviated the condition. I also took up singing. Now, I daily follow a 5 minute intense throat exercise before going to beg until my neck and throat aches. Only then I hit the pillow. People suffering from sleep apnea seem to have bad throat muscles and big tongues.

treeman79 6y ago
Sounds right to me. Also if I’m in a flare, those items will swell noticeably
thking 6y ago
Would you mind sharing the excersises that helped?
- lenkite 6y ago
  The most helpful one is making the top of your tongue meet the roof of your mouth and pulling it backward as far as you are able. Simultaneously move your jaw down forcing it as much down as possible slowly, while not losing roof-tongue contact. Hold the stretch, repeat the same for a couple of minutes and your muscles will ache. This also unclogs your sinus, so don't be surprised if you need to swallow or clear your nose. Also, don't do the full stretch at the first try. Warm up a bit first. There are several others, but take too much time to describe here. You can research online. This is not obscure information. My doctor gave me a writeup. Please note they take a few days to take effect. Personally, I found them effective within a week, but YMMV. Singing also helps - less effective but more fun (well, for you, if not others who will wince).
  - meowster 6y ago
    I am interested in researching it online, but what search terms should I use? I've never heard of this before. Thank you.
    - 6y ago