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> If the Javascript crowd had to manage data storage, nothing persistent would work reliably. Wait until this guy learns what the JS in "json" column types mea

> If the Javascript crowd had to manage data storage, nothing persistent would work reliably. Wait until this guy learns what the JS in "json" column types means, and how the largest webcrap sites rely on them for persistence.

kulig 6y ago
Json is just a format. There are trillions of formats that work just as well as json.
LukeShu 6y ago
Note that 'Animats didn't comment on JS as a technology, he commented on the crowd. In 2017 Bryan Cantrill gave a wonderful talk titled "Platform as a Reflection of Values: Joyent, Node.js and Beyond" https://vimeo.com/230142234 https://vimeo.com/230142234 In it, he talks about how even though they liked JS as a technology, they came to realize that the values of the JS/Node.js community differed from their values at Joyent. In the talk (at around 19:30), he identifies that in 2014 Joyent's core values wrt node.js were "debuggability", "robustness", and "stability"; while the core values of the broader node.js community were "approachability", "expressiveness", and "velocity". And there's nothing wrong with either of those sets values, but they're not the same! With that lens, I'd characterize the parent comment as contrasting the PostgreSQL team's core value of "robustness" with the Javascript crowd's core value of "velocity". That's a distinction in values, not in technology.
edgyquant 6y ago
Json has nothing to do with the persistence part.
- hashtagmarkup 6y ago
  If you need to persistently store frontend state in the backend, would it not be easier to use the native frontend data format? It's not entirely about persistence... it's about the ease and reliability of the persistence.
  - edgyquant 6y ago
    My point is that that JSON isn’t being delivered via a js db but instead translated from data stored in a database written in C. So the “what about json” gotcha isn’t as good as it was made to seem.
    - hashtagmarkup 6y ago
      My point is that JSON is being supported. So the "dismissal of facts" isn't as thoughtful as it was made to seem.
      - edgyquant 6y ago
        No it isn’t though? JSON is used, by developers, as an intermediary to exchange data pulled from a db. Your point that json is proof that the GP comment is false is not even a point but some kind of fallacy akin to a strawman.
        hashtagmarkup 6y ago
        Your inference of my intentions, as an intermediary to deflect from the facts presented, is proof that you're trying really hard to be edgy. Akin to a strawquant. The people behind javascript provided the object notation technology that has been absorbed by Postgres. It is not only being used to exchange data (as a standard text field would be used), but can be used to QUERY data. The database is aware not only of the JSON text string representation, but of the object itself.
        edgyquant 6y ago
        I’m not being edgy you took a data format and pretended it was a refutation when it wasn’t and isn’t.
        hashtagmarkup 6y ago
        What does the JS in JSON stand for? Where did it come from?

kulig 6y ago

Json is just a format. There are trillions of formats that work just as well as json.

LukeShu 6y ago

Note that 'Animats didn't comment on JS as a technology, he commented on the crowd. In 2017 Bryan Cantrill gave a wonderful talk titled "Platform as a Reflection of Values: Joyent, Node.js and Beyond" https://vimeo.com/230142234 https://vimeo.com/230142234 In it, he talks about how even though they liked JS as a technology, they came to realize that the values of the JS/Node.js community differed from their values at Joyent. In the talk (at around 19:30), he identifies that in 2014 Joyent's core values wrt node.js were "debuggability", "robustness", and "stability"; while the core values of the broader node.js community were "approachability", "expressiveness", and "velocity". And there's nothing wrong with either of those sets values, but they're not the same! With that lens, I'd characterize the parent comment as contrasting the PostgreSQL team's core value of "robustness" with the Javascript crowd's core value of "velocity". That's a distinction in values, not in technology.

edgyquant 6y ago

Json has nothing to do with the persistence part.

hashtagmarkup 6y ago
If you need to persistently store frontend state in the backend, would it not be easier to use the native frontend data format? It's not entirely about persistence... it's about the ease and reliability of the persistence.
- edgyquant 6y ago
  My point is that that JSON isn’t being delivered via a js db but instead translated from data stored in a database written in C. So the “what about json” gotcha isn’t as good as it was made to seem.
  - hashtagmarkup 6y ago
    My point is that JSON is being supported. So the "dismissal of facts" isn't as thoughtful as it was made to seem.
    - edgyquant 6y ago
      No it isn’t though? JSON is used, by developers, as an intermediary to exchange data pulled from a db. Your point that json is proof that the GP comment is false is not even a point but some kind of fallacy akin to a strawman.
      - hashtagmarkup 6y ago
        Your inference of my intentions, as an intermediary to deflect from the facts presented, is proof that you're trying really hard to be edgy. Akin to a strawquant. The people behind javascript provided the object notation technology that has been absorbed by Postgres. It is not only being used to exchange data (as a standard text field would be used), but can be used to QUERY data. The database is aware not only of the JSON text string representation, but of the object itself.
        edgyquant 6y ago
        I’m not being edgy you took a data format and pretended it was a refutation when it wasn’t and isn’t.
        hashtagmarkup 6y ago
        What does the JS in JSON stand for? Where did it come from?