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Yes, this is why computer science students from schools like Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, MIT (well, it's an engineering school, anyway), and UT Austin (EWD's sto

Yes, this is why computer science students from schools like Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, MIT (well, it's an engineering school, anyway), and UT Austin (EWD's stomping grounds) are almost completely unemployable in the software-related industries. All of the employers learned pretty quickly that they were all grossly incompetent.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
First, even UT Austin doesn't run their CS program as EWD would have wanted. See his comments when they switched to Java. Second, I suspect (but cannot prove) that this problem is why computer science grads need a couple of years of close supervision on the job before you can trust them with anything.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  They need supervision because they haven't been apprentices gaining practical experience yet. College (especially the sciences) is not about apprenticeships. If you just want "grunt programmer[s]", we need proper apprenticeships and trade schools. Like electronic technicians and plumbers go through.
  - jleyank 6y ago
    Some folks say the science education system is similar to the Medieval Guild systems: apprentices (grad students), journeymen (postdocs) and various levels of master craftsmen (professors). These are intended as ranks not genders, so s/men/people/g if desired.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Academia (not just, or even especially, in the sciences) is a guild system on those lines, but if you are looking for employment outside of academia, things are a bit different even if you need to go through some part of the academic path for the career entry you are aiming for.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > College (especially the sciences) is not about apprenticeships. It is and it isn't. Most degree programs don't require it, and some don't integrate it as a for-credit option, but most (including in the sciences) do open opportunities for them, and lots of students take advantage of that opportunity and are more employable because of it.
- mcguire 6y ago
  Fortunately, you can hire newly minted software engineers and they require no supervision whatsoever to solve your difficult problems.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Nice strawman. Oh, wait, no it isn't. It's a really cheap strawman. But in the end, it's just a strawman. But it is my position that a graduate of a proper software engineering degree would take less initial supervision than a graduate of a CS degree. Why? Because they would have already seen ambiguous requirements, and would have an idea of what to do. They would have already seen a multi-hundred-thousand-line code base, and would be more likely to have some idea how to navigate in one. They would have some idea of what production-level code looks like, and how to go about achieving that level of completeness. And so on.
- dkarl 6y ago
  I suspect (but cannot prove) that this problem is why computer science grads need a couple of years of close supervision There's more to it than that, a lot of which has more to do with learning how companies are structured and how people communicate in the corporate world. Among other things, college students have been trained to tackle any assignment with the assumption that the information they have been given is accurate and comprehensive, and the professor would prefer to hear nothing from them until the assignment is turned in as complete as possible right before the deadline. If you want to educate people to be immediately productive in a corporate environment, that's not what college is for anyway.
- Beldin 6y ago
  Interestingly, Eindhoven University of Technology did use (more-or-less) Dijkstra's approach throughout the 90s. Sure, there were some odd bits, but the core of the curriculum was Dijkstra style. Not sure what they're doing today.
mschaef 6y ago
> Yes, this is why computer science students from schools like ... UT Austin (EWD's stomping grounds) are almost completely unemployable in the software-related industries. UTCS 1997 here. I've been employed in software-related industries continually since graduation, and I can honestly say my UTCS degree has been nothing but helpful in that regard. BTW, the personal website listed in your profile is down. You might want to look into that.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

First, even UT Austin doesn't run their CS program as EWD would have wanted. See his comments when they switched to Java. Second, I suspect (but cannot prove) that this problem is why computer science grads need a couple of years of close supervision on the job before you can trust them with anything.

Jtsummers 6y ago
They need supervision because they haven't been apprentices gaining practical experience yet. College (especially the sciences) is not about apprenticeships. If you just want "grunt programmer[s]", we need proper apprenticeships and trade schools. Like electronic technicians and plumbers go through.
- jleyank 6y ago
  Some folks say the science education system is similar to the Medieval Guild systems: apprentices (grad students), journeymen (postdocs) and various levels of master craftsmen (professors). These are intended as ranks not genders, so s/men/people/g if desired.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Academia (not just, or even especially, in the sciences) is a guild system on those lines, but if you are looking for employment outside of academia, things are a bit different even if you need to go through some part of the academic path for the career entry you are aiming for.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > College (especially the sciences) is not about apprenticeships. It is and it isn't. Most degree programs don't require it, and some don't integrate it as a for-credit option, but most (including in the sciences) do open opportunities for them, and lots of students take advantage of that opportunity and are more employable because of it.
mcguire 6y ago
Fortunately, you can hire newly minted software engineers and they require no supervision whatsoever to solve your difficult problems.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Nice strawman. Oh, wait, no it isn't. It's a really cheap strawman. But in the end, it's just a strawman. But it is my position that a graduate of a proper software engineering degree would take less initial supervision than a graduate of a CS degree. Why? Because they would have already seen ambiguous requirements, and would have an idea of what to do. They would have already seen a multi-hundred-thousand-line code base, and would be more likely to have some idea how to navigate in one. They would have some idea of what production-level code looks like, and how to go about achieving that level of completeness. And so on.
dkarl 6y ago
I suspect (but cannot prove) that this problem is why computer science grads need a couple of years of close supervision There's more to it than that, a lot of which has more to do with learning how companies are structured and how people communicate in the corporate world. Among other things, college students have been trained to tackle any assignment with the assumption that the information they have been given is accurate and comprehensive, and the professor would prefer to hear nothing from them until the assignment is turned in as complete as possible right before the deadline. If you want to educate people to be immediately productive in a corporate environment, that's not what college is for anyway.
Beldin 6y ago
Interestingly, Eindhoven University of Technology did use (more-or-less) Dijkstra's approach throughout the 90s. Sure, there were some odd bits, but the core of the curriculum was Dijkstra style. Not sure what they're doing today.

mschaef 6y ago

> Yes, this is why computer science students from schools like ... UT Austin (EWD's stomping grounds) are almost completely unemployable in the software-related industries. UTCS 1997 here. I've been employed in software-related industries continually since graduation, and I can honestly say my UTCS degree has been nothing but helpful in that regard. BTW, the personal website listed in your profile is down. You might want to look into that.