8 ms·

Well, they still start from real animal cells, from what I understand. As a vegan, I'd have that dilemma. If I was an utilitarian, I'd probably justify it more

Well, they still start from real animal cells, from what I understand. As a vegan, I'd have that dilemma. If I was an utilitarian, I'd probably justify it more clearly. In the meanwhile, I'm quite happy with vegetable based "meat". It was definitely harder to be vegan 10 years ago (social interaction somehow demands a certain diet), and especially here in Spain. Now it's really easy and confinement makes it easier too.

dahfizz 6y ago
What's the vegan reason to not eat lab grown meat? No animal was harmed or even involved in the production of the meat. It's morally equivalent to greenhouse grown plants IMO.
- kitotik 6y ago
  Not the op, but not all vegans have animal cruelty as their primary concern. Many do it for health reasons and avoid ingesting animal proteins in general, regardless of how they were produced.
  - pachico 6y ago
    Take in consideration that being vegan is considered something that goes beyond diet. It takes you to decide on pretty much anything you buy or consume (it took me some time, for instance, finding a strap for my 6 strings bass guitar that wasn't made out of leather). (Btw, do you call it strap or did I just make that out?)
  - uhtred 6y ago
    Sorry to nitpick, but if someone chooses to not eat animal products for a reason other than animal welfare, they are not vegan, but rather "eating plant based" or whatever they want to call it. Being vegan is more than about what you eat, it's trying to live in a way that reduces as much as possible the cruelty to other animals from one's own lifestyle. e.g. don't eat animal products, don't wear animal products, don't use products tested on animals.
    - pachico 6y ago
      Yes, that's correct.
  - MaximumYComb 6y ago
    I'd argue that the majority of vegans do it, at least partially, for animal reasons. I started to see how it would affect health but quickly enjoyed the peace I felt from not harming animals
- pachico 6y ago
  It's where those initial cells were taken from, that's all. It's not that labs create cells from scratch but rather they efficiently reproduce then. It would demand a constant source of reliable cells from animals, from what I understand. Now, personally, do I think this is better than the current situation? Probably yes, but it's an utilitarian reasoning, which tends to justify the misery of few for the wellbeing of many.
  - PopsiclePete 6y ago
    Ok, but... a few cells? You're shedding hundreds of millions of cells daily if not hourly? It's not like you're feeling pain, right?
    - pachico 6y ago
      It's not any cell and this is what I mean by utilitarian thinking, my friend :)
      - davidgay 6y ago
        So by this logic, blood transfusions are cannibalism.
        pachico 6y ago
        The key is the consent.
- BelleOfTheBall 6y ago
  If it was produced initially from an animal, there's still harm done, although I'd argue it's infinitely small compared to what it achieves. There's also the fact that many vegan people try not to purchase vegan products if they come from a "non-vegan company". So if a meat producer also starts peddling tofu, vegans will buy from a different brand simply so they don't line the pockets of the meat or dairy industry. With the way things are going, I'd imagine the first to achieve lab-grown top-quality meat would be an agricultural/farm corporation, which wouldn't sit well with many vegans.
uhtred 6y ago
As far as I am aware they don't need to harm the origin animal when they take the cell, and they only need to do it once at the start and can then reproduce the cells from the lab grown meat. But I could be very wrong. I am perfectly happy with plant based "meat" myself, too. By the way, I had a really hard time finding vegan food in Spain (outside of Barcelona) when I visited. Out of desperation I tried to get a veggie burger in McDonald's (I know not vegan, I was desperate) and they didn't have one! Barcelona however was awesome for vegan food.
- pachico 6y ago
  I understand your pain finding vegan food outside from Barcelona (where I live, btw). Even in Madrid is not that easy, despite being the capital and biggest city. I'm sure not harming is better than harming, I agree. Nevertheless, they are used as tools. I know this might sound like a tree hugger, hippy argument but, would anyone like to be in that situation against their will when it's really not necessary? That's my moral dilemma :)
  - uhtred 6y ago
    Not at all, I completely agree. I personally wont be eating lab meat, partly for that reason and partly because I don't feel like I need to. At this point real meat, even if lab grown, would probably seem to disgusting to me.
    - pachico 6y ago
      That's a question I do to myself. Can I detach a flavour from what it used to mean? When I think about it rationally I come to the conclusion that I should be able to enjoy a flavour, any flavour, if it carries no harm. But we both know there's also an emotional component, which I might share too. It's an interesting topic I don't think I have yet reached a conclusion about.
  - raattgift 6y ago
    Related to this interesting thread, especially your point about utilitarian thinking: "one of the most important cell lines in medical research" "Lacks was the unwitting source of these cells" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Lacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Lacks

dahfizz 6y ago

What's the vegan reason to not eat lab grown meat? No animal was harmed or even involved in the production of the meat. It's morally equivalent to greenhouse grown plants IMO.

kitotik 6y ago
Not the op, but not all vegans have animal cruelty as their primary concern. Many do it for health reasons and avoid ingesting animal proteins in general, regardless of how they were produced.
- pachico 6y ago
  Take in consideration that being vegan is considered something that goes beyond diet. It takes you to decide on pretty much anything you buy or consume (it took me some time, for instance, finding a strap for my 6 strings bass guitar that wasn't made out of leather). (Btw, do you call it strap or did I just make that out?)
- uhtred 6y ago
  Sorry to nitpick, but if someone chooses to not eat animal products for a reason other than animal welfare, they are not vegan, but rather "eating plant based" or whatever they want to call it. Being vegan is more than about what you eat, it's trying to live in a way that reduces as much as possible the cruelty to other animals from one's own lifestyle. e.g. don't eat animal products, don't wear animal products, don't use products tested on animals.
  - pachico 6y ago
    Yes, that's correct.
- MaximumYComb 6y ago
  I'd argue that the majority of vegans do it, at least partially, for animal reasons. I started to see how it would affect health but quickly enjoyed the peace I felt from not harming animals
pachico 6y ago
It's where those initial cells were taken from, that's all. It's not that labs create cells from scratch but rather they efficiently reproduce then. It would demand a constant source of reliable cells from animals, from what I understand. Now, personally, do I think this is better than the current situation? Probably yes, but it's an utilitarian reasoning, which tends to justify the misery of few for the wellbeing of many.
- PopsiclePete 6y ago
  Ok, but... a few cells? You're shedding hundreds of millions of cells daily if not hourly? It's not like you're feeling pain, right?
  - pachico 6y ago
    It's not any cell and this is what I mean by utilitarian thinking, my friend :)
    - davidgay 6y ago
      So by this logic, blood transfusions are cannibalism.
      - pachico 6y ago
        The key is the consent.
BelleOfTheBall 6y ago
If it was produced initially from an animal, there's still harm done, although I'd argue it's infinitely small compared to what it achieves. There's also the fact that many vegan people try not to purchase vegan products if they come from a "non-vegan company". So if a meat producer also starts peddling tofu, vegans will buy from a different brand simply so they don't line the pockets of the meat or dairy industry. With the way things are going, I'd imagine the first to achieve lab-grown top-quality meat would be an agricultural/farm corporation, which wouldn't sit well with many vegans.

uhtred 6y ago

As far as I am aware they don't need to harm the origin animal when they take the cell, and they only need to do it once at the start and can then reproduce the cells from the lab grown meat. But I could be very wrong. I am perfectly happy with plant based "meat" myself, too. By the way, I had a really hard time finding vegan food in Spain (outside of Barcelona) when I visited. Out of desperation I tried to get a veggie burger in McDonald's (I know not vegan, I was desperate) and they didn't have one! Barcelona however was awesome for vegan food.

pachico 6y ago
I understand your pain finding vegan food outside from Barcelona (where I live, btw). Even in Madrid is not that easy, despite being the capital and biggest city. I'm sure not harming is better than harming, I agree. Nevertheless, they are used as tools. I know this might sound like a tree hugger, hippy argument but, would anyone like to be in that situation against their will when it's really not necessary? That's my moral dilemma :)
- uhtred 6y ago
  Not at all, I completely agree. I personally wont be eating lab meat, partly for that reason and partly because I don't feel like I need to. At this point real meat, even if lab grown, would probably seem to disgusting to me.
  - pachico 6y ago
    That's a question I do to myself. Can I detach a flavour from what it used to mean? When I think about it rationally I come to the conclusion that I should be able to enjoy a flavour, any flavour, if it carries no harm. But we both know there's also an emotional component, which I might share too. It's an interesting topic I don't think I have yet reached a conclusion about.
- raattgift 6y ago
  Related to this interesting thread, especially your point about utilitarian thinking: "one of the most important cell lines in medical research" "Lacks was the unwitting source of these cells" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Lacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Lacks