4 ms·

> I'd be curious to know if Dijkstra had access to a similar embarrassment of riches. Dijkstra spent a good chunk of the latter part of his career at the Unive

> I'd be curious to know if Dijkstra had access to a similar embarrassment of riches. Dijkstra spent a good chunk of the latter part of his career at the University of Texas in Austin. There was plenty of access to facilities there, but that wasn't really what his research was about. He wrote longhand (scans here: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/) and didn't really use much technology directly in his work. This makes sense, because after all, Dijkstra is responsible for this famous quote: "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes". https://www.quora.com/What-did-Dijkstra-mean-when-he-said-Computer-science-is-no-more-about-computers-than-astronomy-is-about-telescopes https://www.quora.com/What-did-Dijkstra-mean-when-he-said-Co...

datalus 6y ago
Hamilton Richards (maintainer at the time of the EWDs on the site) was my analysis of programs professor at UT. I had arrived there in 2003 as a freshman, the reverence and impact of Djistrka was incredibly palpable. I remember some of my classmates were turned off by how theoretical some of the core courses were. A lot of people saw it as less practical. Also the height of Java's OO take over of CS programs, it was definitely a mix of classes. Although the theory courses tended to either care less about language choice or focused on Haskell.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
This is the difference between computer science and software engineering. And the vast majority of people who graduate with a CS degree are going to work as software engineers, not as computer scientists. They are therefore being mis-educated to the degree that their CS program agrees with Dijkstra's philosophy. (Which doesn't mean that Dijkstra is wrong about CS. It just means that a CS degree shouldn't be the passport to a career in software engineering, or even a job as a grunt programmer.)
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  Dijkstra is totally of the European tradition where if you don't belong to the guild it's flat out illegal for you to work in the field.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    The European tradition is that if you are not admitted to the guild you must not work in the field without supervision. Nothing wrong with that, tbh. You get something out of it, too, your sponsor is invested in your success.
- mcguire 6y ago
  Yes, this is why computer science students from schools like Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, MIT (well, it's an engineering school, anyway), and UT Austin (EWD's stomping grounds) are almost completely unemployable in the software-related industries. All of the employers learned pretty quickly that they were all grossly incompetent.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    First, even UT Austin doesn't run their CS program as EWD would have wanted. See his comments when they switched to Java. Second, I suspect (but cannot prove) that this problem is why computer science grads need a couple of years of close supervision on the job before you can trust them with anything.
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      They need supervision because they haven't been apprentices gaining practical experience yet. College (especially the sciences) is not about apprenticeships. If you just want "grunt programmer[s]", we need proper apprenticeships and trade schools. Like electronic technicians and plumbers go through.
      - jleyank 6y ago
        Some folks say the science education system is similar to the Medieval Guild systems: apprentices (grad students), journeymen (postdocs) and various levels of master craftsmen (professors). These are intended as ranks not genders, so s/men/people/g if desired.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        Academia (not just, or even especially, in the sciences) is a guild system on those lines, but if you are looking for employment outside of academia, things are a bit different even if you need to go through some part of the academic path for the career entry you are aiming for.
      - 6y ago
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  What's more confusing is that Software Engineering, Computer Engineering and Computer science overlap quite a bit, but are distinct fields. Furthermore, there really is two kinds of CS departments: the ones that were spun out of a Math department and those that emerged out of an Electrical Engineering one.
  - abhayb 6y ago
    Secret third option: spun out of the Business School!
- opportune 6y ago
  Having a good understanding of theoretical CS and its fundamentals makes programming a relatively trivial activity. I don't think a CS degree miseducates you at all, as long as you actually internalize the CS you learn.
mcguire 6y ago
Famously, Dijkstra did not have a computer for most of his time there. He either typed his work on a manual typewriter (early in his career) or wrote it longhand in his elegant Dijkstra font (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7796919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7796919). His secretary would print out his emails for him to read and respond to. Eventually, he got a Macintosh (IIRC, Cynthia Matuszek (https://www.csee.umbc.edu/~cmat/ https://www.csee.umbc.edu/~cmat/) was the one who set it up for him. (Hi!))

datalus 6y ago

Hamilton Richards (maintainer at the time of the EWDs on the site) was my analysis of programs professor at UT. I had arrived there in 2003 as a freshman, the reverence and impact of Djistrka was incredibly palpable. I remember some of my classmates were turned off by how theoretical some of the core courses were. A lot of people saw it as less practical. Also the height of Java's OO take over of CS programs, it was definitely a mix of classes. Although the theory courses tended to either care less about language choice or focused on Haskell.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

This is the difference between computer science and software engineering. And the vast majority of people who graduate with a CS degree are going to work as software engineers, not as computer scientists. They are therefore being mis-educated to the degree that their CS program agrees with Dijkstra's philosophy. (Which doesn't mean that Dijkstra is wrong about CS. It just means that a CS degree shouldn't be the passport to a career in software engineering, or even a job as a grunt programmer.)

Gibbon1 6y ago
Dijkstra is totally of the European tradition where if you don't belong to the guild it's flat out illegal for you to work in the field.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  The European tradition is that if you are not admitted to the guild you must not work in the field without supervision. Nothing wrong with that, tbh. You get something out of it, too, your sponsor is invested in your success.
mcguire 6y ago
Yes, this is why computer science students from schools like Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, MIT (well, it's an engineering school, anyway), and UT Austin (EWD's stomping grounds) are almost completely unemployable in the software-related industries. All of the employers learned pretty quickly that they were all grossly incompetent.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  First, even UT Austin doesn't run their CS program as EWD would have wanted. See his comments when they switched to Java. Second, I suspect (but cannot prove) that this problem is why computer science grads need a couple of years of close supervision on the job before you can trust them with anything.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    They need supervision because they haven't been apprentices gaining practical experience yet. College (especially the sciences) is not about apprenticeships. If you just want "grunt programmer[s]", we need proper apprenticeships and trade schools. Like electronic technicians and plumbers go through.
    - jleyank 6y ago
      Some folks say the science education system is similar to the Medieval Guild systems: apprentices (grad students), journeymen (postdocs) and various levels of master craftsmen (professors). These are intended as ranks not genders, so s/men/people/g if desired.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        Academia (not just, or even especially, in the sciences) is a guild system on those lines, but if you are looking for employment outside of academia, things are a bit different even if you need to go through some part of the academic path for the career entry you are aiming for.
    - 6y ago
908B64B197 6y ago
What's more confusing is that Software Engineering, Computer Engineering and Computer science overlap quite a bit, but are distinct fields. Furthermore, there really is two kinds of CS departments: the ones that were spun out of a Math department and those that emerged out of an Electrical Engineering one.
- abhayb 6y ago
  Secret third option: spun out of the Business School!
opportune 6y ago
Having a good understanding of theoretical CS and its fundamentals makes programming a relatively trivial activity. I don't think a CS degree miseducates you at all, as long as you actually internalize the CS you learn.

mcguire 6y ago

Famously, Dijkstra did not have a computer for most of his time there. He either typed his work on a manual typewriter (early in his career) or wrote it longhand in his elegant Dijkstra font (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7796919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7796919). His secretary would print out his emails for him to read and respond to. Eventually, he got a Macintosh (IIRC, Cynthia Matuszek (https://www.csee.umbc.edu/~cmat/ https://www.csee.umbc.edu/~cmat/) was the one who set it up for him. (Hi!))