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"Solutions" like this are how we destroyed Yellowstone the first time, and why deer now run rampant all over the US, literally eroding forests from excessive gr

"Solutions" like this are how we destroyed Yellowstone the first time, and why deer now run rampant all over the US, literally eroding forests from excessive grazing. A naive assumption about a complex system has knock-on effects that destroy the entire ecosystem.

spiderfarmer 6y ago
You're making a naive assumption based on one popular Facebook video. The wolves didn't make any difference to the deer population.
- abfan1127 6y ago
  do you have information to back that claim up?
  - spiderfarmer 6y ago
    "It's a really romantic story," Utah State University ecologist Dan McNulty said. "It's a story about a world that doesn't really exist." https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/scientists-debunk-myth-that-yellowstone-wolves-changed-entire-ecosystem-flow-of-rivers/349988 https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/scientists-debun...
    - pvaldes 6y ago
      > "Is a really romantic history" It still amazes me how often people think that biologists are stupid Wolves return to Yellowstone has being ruminated, and I say ruminated, by scientists for 70 long years All the possible results were examinated, there were lots of reports evaluating the project and all the benefits and cons were studied for decades, by lots and lots of well trained people. The effect of wolf in environment and its role as key species is described in conferences monographs and books. Teams of scientists studied the populations of each single big mammal and bird in Yellowstone, before and after wolves. You can find their conclusions in the libraries of all universities specialized in ecology and animal management. The results were even better than expected, but this was a big success because it was based in a entire life of previous hard work. We talk about reviewed, easily verifiable and painfully verified facts, not about a pulp novel written on a weekend or somebody tossing a coin. Do you really think that somebody could just upload a fakebook video linking to a fake scientific article in this field without being detected and disclosed immediately?
      - spiderfarmer 6y ago
        Yes, I do. That video is widely disputed by ecologists and you haven’t read my link.
        pvaldes 6y ago
        one ecologist != ecologists; I had some critics or a different opinion != widely disputed; holy moly fakebook video != science; You have found an internet link != I must read it ASAP;
rmah 6y ago
Taking wolves off the endangered list does not mean open season on hunting any and all wolves with abandon. The wolves of Yellowstone will still be mostly protected.
maxerickson 6y ago
Deer herds are managed large for hunting also. We could issue lots more doe permits and make herds smaller right quick.
peterwwillis 6y ago
Also, since some people missed it: I wasn't talking about the effect of reintroducing wolves of Yellowstone (although they were mismanaged too). I was talking about the effect of messing with the ecosystem the first time. Yellowstone: How Not To Manage A National Park https://kottke.org/15/01/yellowstone-how-not-to-manage-a-national-park https://kottke.org/15/01/yellowstone-how-not-to-manage-a-nat... "By 1934, the Park Service acknowledged that whitetail deer, cougar, lynx, wolf, and possibly wolverine and fisher are gone from the Yellowstone. What they didn’t say was that the Park Service was solely responsible for the disappearances."

spiderfarmer 6y ago

You're making a naive assumption based on one popular Facebook video. The wolves didn't make any difference to the deer population.

abfan1127 6y ago
do you have information to back that claim up?
- spiderfarmer 6y ago
  "It's a really romantic story," Utah State University ecologist Dan McNulty said. "It's a story about a world that doesn't really exist." https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/scientists-debunk-myth-that-yellowstone-wolves-changed-entire-ecosystem-flow-of-rivers/349988 https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/scientists-debun...
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    > "Is a really romantic history" It still amazes me how often people think that biologists are stupid Wolves return to Yellowstone has being ruminated, and I say ruminated, by scientists for 70 long years All the possible results were examinated, there were lots of reports evaluating the project and all the benefits and cons were studied for decades, by lots and lots of well trained people. The effect of wolf in environment and its role as key species is described in conferences monographs and books. Teams of scientists studied the populations of each single big mammal and bird in Yellowstone, before and after wolves. You can find their conclusions in the libraries of all universities specialized in ecology and animal management. The results were even better than expected, but this was a big success because it was based in a entire life of previous hard work. We talk about reviewed, easily verifiable and painfully verified facts, not about a pulp novel written on a weekend or somebody tossing a coin. Do you really think that somebody could just upload a fakebook video linking to a fake scientific article in this field without being detected and disclosed immediately?
    - spiderfarmer 6y ago
      Yes, I do. That video is widely disputed by ecologists and you haven’t read my link.
      - pvaldes 6y ago
        one ecologist != ecologists; I had some critics or a different opinion != widely disputed; holy moly fakebook video != science; You have found an internet link != I must read it ASAP;

rmah 6y ago

Taking wolves off the endangered list does not mean open season on hunting any and all wolves with abandon. The wolves of Yellowstone will still be mostly protected.

maxerickson 6y ago

Deer herds are managed large for hunting also. We could issue lots more doe permits and make herds smaller right quick.

peterwwillis 6y ago

Also, since some people missed it: I wasn't talking about the effect of reintroducing wolves of Yellowstone (although they were mismanaged too). I was talking about the effect of messing with the ecosystem the first time. Yellowstone: How Not To Manage A National Park https://kottke.org/15/01/yellowstone-how-not-to-manage-a-national-park https://kottke.org/15/01/yellowstone-how-not-to-manage-a-nat... "By 1934, the Park Service acknowledged that whitetail deer, cougar, lynx, wolf, and possibly wolverine and fisher are gone from the Yellowstone. What they didn’t say was that the Park Service was solely responsible for the disappearances."