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It's important to emphasize that this isn't just about a Donkey Kong score. Twin Galaxies took the extreme position that because they were suspicious of a han

It's important to emphasize that this isn't just about a Donkey Kong score. Twin Galaxies took the extreme position that because they were suspicious of a handful of Donkey Kong games played over the decades by Billy Mitchell -- they're invalidating every score in every videogame he ever played in his life. (In 1985 Mitchell held the world's high scores for Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong, Jr., Centipede, and Burger Time.)

MilnerRoute 6y ago
It seems like the record Billy is most proud of is his perfect game of Pac-Man. (To this day on Twitter he calls himself "Pac-Man Billy.") Here's a good article that explains how difficult that was. https://www.oxfordamerican.org/magazine/item/622-the-perfect-man https://www.oxfordamerican.org/magazine/item/622-the-perfect... After 254 levels of normal Pac-man, the screen fills with jibberish and screen noise -- some of the pixels you have to eat are actually invisible. Billy was the first person on planet earth to crack that level. That's one of the other records Twin Galaxies has invalidated. Billy's argument is in part: there's zero evidence he cheated at Pac-man, so why is that score being invalidated too.
- bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
  Looks like the Pac-Man score was reinstated. https://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/29330854/retro-gaming-pariah-billy-mitchell-guinness-records-reinstated https://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/29330854/retro-gamin...
  - MilnerRoute 6y ago
    By Guinness. But not by Twin Galaxies...
    - bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
      Ah, thanks for this correction
  - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
    By Guinness World Records only, despite the fact that GWR are not and never were the refereeing organisation for those records, so they don't have any authority. GWR just republishes Twin Galaxies' records.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Isn't this common in sports? If you're caught intentionally cheating even once your entire career's achievements are invalidated.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    Multiple people have been suspended for doping in tennis, but their past achievements were not impacted.
  - octodog 6y ago
    No. It's not. In fact I can't think of any major sports that operate in that way. Titles/records are stripped from events where they are proven to be doping/cheating but that's usually it. Athletes are then usually banned for a period afterwards.
    - notyourwork 6y ago
      Lance Armstrong comes to mind.
    - dimator 6y ago
      Lance Armstrong
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        Armstrong fits the “Titles/records are stripped from events where they are proven to be doping/cheating” pattern not the “acheivements negated for whole career regardless” pattern. It's just that the conclusion of the investigations into the allegations that started early in the major success portion of his career was that he was cheating the whole time of his biggest successes.
zucker42 6y ago
Well if he's cheated in one game, I think it's perfectly reasonable to issue a full ban, and I'm sure TG's TOS gives them full discretion to do so.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  > I'm sure TG's TOS gives them full discretion to do so. I think Twin Galaxies and those records predate this sort of privately issued internet law.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  I don't really agree. Ban him from further games, because he's a known cheater? Sure/maybe. But unless his record in Pac-Man itself seems suspect I don't think it should be taken away.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
    Many of Twin Galaxies' old records have no surviving evidence allowing them to be verified.
    - hombre_fatal 6y ago
      If they want to keep those runs, seems like this could be solved with an Archive/Legacy tab or even better a checkbox for "Show unverifiable runs" that's unchecked by default. That way a game isn't killed forever because an unverifiable run got a perfect score.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    > unless his record in Pac-Man itself seems suspect Are there good records to determine that it isn't suspect?
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    The damage for removing a valid score from a known cheater is that they may be robbed of a legitimate score. The damage of not removing an invalid score is that that score may be impossible or require superhuman skills (i.e. TAS) to attain, thus forever removing that category from competition. This lopsidedness - and don't get me wrong, a healthy dose of schadenfreude too - makes me strongly believe proven cheaters should be stripped of all records.
bhickey 6y ago
TG removing his scores isn't at issue. I don't think there's a court that could order them to reinstate his scores, since it would be the government ordering them to engage in some speech. His claim is that TG called him a cheater. For purposes of this ruling the judge found that TG's statements were not opinion but were held out as fact. I think TG did themselves no favors in being cagey. They could've easily formulated their statement as an opinion based on disclosed facts. In essence, "I think John is a drunk" may be defamatory because it implies undisclosed facts while "I think John is a drunk because he buys a liter of vodka each week" is an opinion.
- gentleman11 6y ago
  In both cases doesn’t the “I think” convey that it is an opinion?
  - milkytron 6y ago
    This comes down to language, specifically what differs an opinion from a belief. Which is quite complex and I cannot fully wrap my head around it. But here's my take nonetheless. In this case, placing the "I think" would make it a belief. This could also make a statement an opinion, but from what I understand, beliefs have a non-zero chance of being proven or disproven, whereas opinions cannot be proven. "I think gentleman11 is nice username" is a bit different than "I think gentleman11 is a man". Something being "nice" is a bit harder to prove, and possibly impossible without additional context. Thus, it is an opinion. Someone being an man, cheater, alcoholic, etc have the ability to be proven, so it's not as much an opinion as a belief. I'm not a linguist, but I'd be interested in what language specialists have to say on this.
  - bhickey 6y ago
    Couching your language only gets you so far. By disclosing the facts that underpinning an opinion a speaker may enjoy protections over merely implying them.
TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
Is it an extreme position? Video game high scores and speedrunning are sports that rely on honour to a certain extent, because it's difficult to detect sophisticated cheating even with video evidence, and many of Twin Galaxies' old records do not even have that, being verified by referees (at least one of whom has his own dodgy history) without surviving proof. If someone is found to have cheated, their other records also lose credibility because of that honour component. Also, suspending records is maybe the only form of leverage honest players have.
Retric 6y ago
IMO, that’s a completely reasonable stance. Cheaters often retroactively lose trophies even if they might not have cheated in that instance. It’s simply better for the community to have such standards. I don’t have a high opinion of the Olympics but In the case of team events, the rule was revised in March 2003 so that the IOC can strip medals from a team based on infractions by a single team member. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stripped_Olympic_medals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stripped_Olympic_medal... That’s arguably a much harsher stance.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your point of view. Suppose we're on a four-person relay race team, one of our other teammates is cheating, we win the gold medal in the relay race, and the cheating is uncovered. It would seem outrageous to me for you or I to keep our Olympic Gold Medals.
  - Retric 6y ago
    They would ban a full team even if the member was simply on the roster and did not actually participate. Designated alternates only get medals if they have some nominal participation, so they will generally get it when possible.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
d_tr 6y ago
It might sound a bit harsh but OTOH anyone who decides to cheat in this context has plenty of time to reevaluate, since (I guess) it takes some preparation and energy.

MilnerRoute 6y ago

It seems like the record Billy is most proud of is his perfect game of Pac-Man. (To this day on Twitter he calls himself "Pac-Man Billy.") Here's a good article that explains how difficult that was. https://www.oxfordamerican.org/magazine/item/622-the-perfect-man https://www.oxfordamerican.org/magazine/item/622-the-perfect... After 254 levels of normal Pac-man, the screen fills with jibberish and screen noise -- some of the pixels you have to eat are actually invisible. Billy was the first person on planet earth to crack that level. That's one of the other records Twin Galaxies has invalidated. Billy's argument is in part: there's zero evidence he cheated at Pac-man, so why is that score being invalidated too.

bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
Looks like the Pac-Man score was reinstated. https://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/29330854/retro-gaming-pariah-billy-mitchell-guinness-records-reinstated https://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/29330854/retro-gamin...
- MilnerRoute 6y ago
  By Guinness. But not by Twin Galaxies...
  - bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
    Ah, thanks for this correction
- TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
  By Guinness World Records only, despite the fact that GWR are not and never were the refereeing organisation for those records, so they don't have any authority. GWR just republishes Twin Galaxies' records.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
Isn't this common in sports? If you're caught intentionally cheating even once your entire career's achievements are invalidated.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  Multiple people have been suspended for doping in tennis, but their past achievements were not impacted.
- octodog 6y ago
  No. It's not. In fact I can't think of any major sports that operate in that way. Titles/records are stripped from events where they are proven to be doping/cheating but that's usually it. Athletes are then usually banned for a period afterwards.
  - notyourwork 6y ago
    Lance Armstrong comes to mind.
  - dimator 6y ago
    Lance Armstrong
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Armstrong fits the “Titles/records are stripped from events where they are proven to be doping/cheating” pattern not the “acheivements negated for whole career regardless” pattern. It's just that the conclusion of the investigations into the allegations that started early in the major success portion of his career was that he was cheating the whole time of his biggest successes.

zucker42 6y ago

Well if he's cheated in one game, I think it's perfectly reasonable to issue a full ban, and I'm sure TG's TOS gives them full discretion to do so.

pessimizer 6y ago
> I'm sure TG's TOS gives them full discretion to do so. I think Twin Galaxies and those records predate this sort of privately issued internet law.
Aerroon 6y ago
I don't really agree. Ban him from further games, because he's a known cheater? Sure/maybe. But unless his record in Pac-Man itself seems suspect I don't think it should be taken away.
- TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
  Many of Twin Galaxies' old records have no surviving evidence allowing them to be verified.
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    If they want to keep those runs, seems like this could be solved with an Archive/Legacy tab or even better a checkbox for "Show unverifiable runs" that's unchecked by default. That way a game isn't killed forever because an unverifiable run got a perfect score.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  > unless his record in Pac-Man itself seems suspect Are there good records to determine that it isn't suspect?
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  The damage for removing a valid score from a known cheater is that they may be robbed of a legitimate score. The damage of not removing an invalid score is that that score may be impossible or require superhuman skills (i.e. TAS) to attain, thus forever removing that category from competition. This lopsidedness - and don't get me wrong, a healthy dose of schadenfreude too - makes me strongly believe proven cheaters should be stripped of all records.

bhickey 6y ago

TG removing his scores isn't at issue. I don't think there's a court that could order them to reinstate his scores, since it would be the government ordering them to engage in some speech. His claim is that TG called him a cheater. For purposes of this ruling the judge found that TG's statements were not opinion but were held out as fact. I think TG did themselves no favors in being cagey. They could've easily formulated their statement as an opinion based on disclosed facts. In essence, "I think John is a drunk" may be defamatory because it implies undisclosed facts while "I think John is a drunk because he buys a liter of vodka each week" is an opinion.

gentleman11 6y ago
In both cases doesn’t the “I think” convey that it is an opinion?
- milkytron 6y ago
  This comes down to language, specifically what differs an opinion from a belief. Which is quite complex and I cannot fully wrap my head around it. But here's my take nonetheless. In this case, placing the "I think" would make it a belief. This could also make a statement an opinion, but from what I understand, beliefs have a non-zero chance of being proven or disproven, whereas opinions cannot be proven. "I think gentleman11 is nice username" is a bit different than "I think gentleman11 is a man". Something being "nice" is a bit harder to prove, and possibly impossible without additional context. Thus, it is an opinion. Someone being an man, cheater, alcoholic, etc have the ability to be proven, so it's not as much an opinion as a belief. I'm not a linguist, but I'd be interested in what language specialists have to say on this.
- bhickey 6y ago
  Couching your language only gets you so far. By disclosing the facts that underpinning an opinion a speaker may enjoy protections over merely implying them.

TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago

Is it an extreme position? Video game high scores and speedrunning are sports that rely on honour to a certain extent, because it's difficult to detect sophisticated cheating even with video evidence, and many of Twin Galaxies' old records do not even have that, being verified by referees (at least one of whom has his own dodgy history) without surviving proof. If someone is found to have cheated, their other records also lose credibility because of that honour component. Also, suspending records is maybe the only form of leverage honest players have.

Retric 6y ago

IMO, that’s a completely reasonable stance. Cheaters often retroactively lose trophies even if they might not have cheated in that instance. It’s simply better for the community to have such standards. I don’t have a high opinion of the Olympics but In the case of team events, the rule was revised in March 2003 so that the IOC can strip medals from a team based on infractions by a single team member. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stripped_Olympic_medals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stripped_Olympic_medal... That’s arguably a much harsher stance.

sokoloff 6y ago
I'm not sure I understand your point of view. Suppose we're on a four-person relay race team, one of our other teammates is cheating, we win the gold medal in the relay race, and the cheating is uncovered. It would seem outrageous to me for you or I to keep our Olympic Gold Medals.
- Retric 6y ago
  They would ban a full team even if the member was simply on the roster and did not actually participate. Designated alternates only get medals if they have some nominal participation, so they will generally get it when possible.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

d_tr 6y ago

It might sound a bit harsh but OTOH anyone who decides to cheat in this context has plenty of time to reevaluate, since (I guess) it takes some preparation and energy.