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Awesome. Can we have containerized games at some point on Windows too? It’d be great to be able to keep a game and all its mods and extra dependencies together

by easton 6y ago

Awesome. Can we have containerized games at some point on Windows too? It’d be great to be able to keep a game and all its mods and extra dependencies together so I don’t have to worry about it breaking because I did a Windows Update. Microsoft has demoed graphics accelerated container-ish things with Windows Sandbox, including running full speed games, although I don’t know if it’s open to developers.

rkangel 6y ago
Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? At some point you are always going to need hardware interfaces and those are provided by the OS kernel. There's only so much you can achieve with containerisation.
- somehnguy 6y ago
  Who says we can't provide those interfaces to the container? My view of it is less like containerization to provide complete isolation from the host/guest, but instead containerization to make the whole game a single 'entity'. Want to move the game from one system to another? Copy the container, that is where everything exists. No running around your filesystem looking for where the game decided to drop random files. Modded out the game and you break something? Just roll back the container.
  - nlightcho 6y ago
    This is how UWP works and it's a UX disaster.
    - somehnguy 6y ago
      That looks like a grossly over engineered version of what I would like. Sidenote: I've been a linux/Mac user for a few years now and recently had to work on stuff for the Windows side of things. All I can say is: wow. what a disaster. documentation is a complete nightmare and there seem to be 14 different versions of anything all fighting to do similar things. dead ends everywhere.
- toast0 6y ago
  > Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? Because Microsoft gutted its in-house testing program in favor of moving fast and letting end users find the bugs. A 3rd party containerized system could passthrough the interfaces that are known to work, massage those that need massaging, and catalog (with user consent) the ones that are unknown. Kind of like Microsoft's compatability modes, but managed by someone else, because Microsoft stopped caring, apparently.
- erinaceousjones 6y ago
  > Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? Windows 10 'N' Editions ship without a Media Feature Pack which some games rely on - i.e. Rockstar games (GTA V, Red Dead Redemption 2). You can install the media feature pack by downloading it from microsoft, but I've noticed that when the OS has major updates (i.e. the "Creators update" from last fall), the media feature pack gets removed and you have to reinstall it. It's better than it used to be - or at least, it's hidden away from me via Steam etc. - but I remember loads of games coming with installers for specific versions of DirectX, Visual C++ Redistributable libraries, different versions of .Net framework. Not sure what the rationale behind it was compared to "just statically link it" but maybe in this case you couldn't just statically compile supporting microsoft libs into your game engine... And maybe there are/were legal reasons about why you couldn't stick the right versions of .dlls into your game's working directories...?
  - libraryatnight 6y ago
    I made this mistake. I wasn't paying attention when I grabbed a windows keys from my msdn keys and didn't notice I picked N Pro instead of just Pro. I swear every time I have to fix issues related to it I'm going to swap versions and never do.
oldmanhorton 6y ago
They're already moving in that direction, though I don't know how mods interact with gamecore: https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-the-microsoft-store/ https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-...
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
What game has ever broken due to Win update
- tanjtanjtanj 6y ago
  Nier: Automata stopped working for me and a few older games I play lost controller support after the W10 Anniversary update.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  A mod loader for Mirror’s Edge Catalyst broke in a Windows 10 update. That’s actually quite important to me, because I use a mod in order to fix a major problem (xp-gated ability upgrades) in what is otherwise one of my favorite games. The mod loader’s author fixed it, but I wonder what the outcome would have been if this broke 15 years after the game’s release, instead of after just a few years.
- remexre 6y ago
  The Creator's update, I believe, broke Fallout: New Vegas for a while -- I think some deprecated strings that identify GPUs changed, so a fallback renderer that doesn't work anymore was chosen.
alibert 6y ago
Isn't UWP games in the Windows Store what you are looking for? For example, all Xbox Game Pass games are installed via a virtual read only filesystem (XVD Disk Driver). If you need to mod a game, there is an optional setting to unlock write access.

by easton 6y ago

rkangel 6y ago

Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? At some point you are always going to need hardware interfaces and those are provided by the OS kernel. There's only so much you can achieve with containerisation.

somehnguy 6y ago
Who says we can't provide those interfaces to the container? My view of it is less like containerization to provide complete isolation from the host/guest, but instead containerization to make the whole game a single 'entity'. Want to move the game from one system to another? Copy the container, that is where everything exists. No running around your filesystem looking for where the game decided to drop random files. Modded out the game and you break something? Just roll back the container.
- nlightcho 6y ago
  This is how UWP works and it's a UX disaster.
  - somehnguy 6y ago
    That looks like a grossly over engineered version of what I would like. Sidenote: I've been a linux/Mac user for a few years now and recently had to work on stuff for the Windows side of things. All I can say is: wow. what a disaster. documentation is a complete nightmare and there seem to be 14 different versions of anything all fighting to do similar things. dead ends everywhere.
toast0 6y ago
> Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? Because Microsoft gutted its in-house testing program in favor of moving fast and letting end users find the bugs. A 3rd party containerized system could passthrough the interfaces that are known to work, massage those that need massaging, and catalog (with user consent) the ones that are unknown. Kind of like Microsoft's compatability modes, but managed by someone else, because Microsoft stopped caring, apparently.
erinaceousjones 6y ago
> Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? Windows 10 'N' Editions ship without a Media Feature Pack which some games rely on - i.e. Rockstar games (GTA V, Red Dead Redemption 2). You can install the media feature pack by downloading it from microsoft, but I've noticed that when the OS has major updates (i.e. the "Creators update" from last fall), the media feature pack gets removed and you have to reinstall it. It's better than it used to be - or at least, it's hidden away from me via Steam etc. - but I remember loads of games coming with installers for specific versions of DirectX, Visual C++ Redistributable libraries, different versions of .Net framework. Not sure what the rationale behind it was compared to "just statically link it" but maybe in this case you couldn't just statically compile supporting microsoft libs into your game engine... And maybe there are/were legal reasons about why you couldn't stick the right versions of .dlls into your game's working directories...?
- libraryatnight 6y ago
  I made this mistake. I wasn't paying attention when I grabbed a windows keys from my msdn keys and didn't notice I picked N Pro instead of just Pro. I swear every time I have to fix issues related to it I'm going to swap versions and never do.

oldmanhorton 6y ago

They're already moving in that direction, though I don't know how mods interact with gamecore: https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-the-microsoft-store/ https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-...

NikolaeVarius 6y ago

What game has ever broken due to Win update

tanjtanjtanj 6y ago
Nier: Automata stopped working for me and a few older games I play lost controller support after the W10 Anniversary update.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
A mod loader for Mirror’s Edge Catalyst broke in a Windows 10 update. That’s actually quite important to me, because I use a mod in order to fix a major problem (xp-gated ability upgrades) in what is otherwise one of my favorite games. The mod loader’s author fixed it, but I wonder what the outcome would have been if this broke 15 years after the game’s release, instead of after just a few years.
remexre 6y ago
The Creator's update, I believe, broke Fallout: New Vegas for a while -- I think some deprecated strings that identify GPUs changed, so a fallback renderer that doesn't work anymore was chosen.

alibert 6y ago

Isn't UWP games in the Windows Store what you are looking for? For example, all Xbox Game Pass games are installed via a virtual read only filesystem (XVD Disk Driver). If you need to mod a game, there is an optional setting to unlock write access.