9 ms·

Valve put their 'Pressure Vessel' container source for Linux games up on Gitlab

224 points by mfilion 6y ago

voltagex_ 6y ago
Direct link: https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/tree/master/pressure-vessel https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/t...
easton 6y ago
Awesome. Can we have containerized games at some point on Windows too? It’d be great to be able to keep a game and all its mods and extra dependencies together so I don’t have to worry about it breaking because I did a Windows Update. Microsoft has demoed graphics accelerated container-ish things with Windows Sandbox, including running full speed games, although I don’t know if it’s open to developers.
- rkangel 6y ago
  Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? At some point you are always going to need hardware interfaces and those are provided by the OS kernel. There's only so much you can achieve with containerisation.
  - somehnguy 6y ago
    Who says we can't provide those interfaces to the container? My view of it is less like containerization to provide complete isolation from the host/guest, but instead containerization to make the whole game a single 'entity'. Want to move the game from one system to another? Copy the container, that is where everything exists. No running around your filesystem looking for where the game decided to drop random files. Modded out the game and you break something? Just roll back the container.
    - nlightcho 6y ago
      This is how UWP works and it's a UX disaster.
      - somehnguy 6y ago
        That looks like a grossly over engineered version of what I would like. Sidenote: I've been a linux/Mac user for a few years now and recently had to work on stuff for the Windows side of things. All I can say is: wow. what a disaster. documentation is a complete nightmare and there seem to be 14 different versions of anything all fighting to do similar things. dead ends everywhere.
  - toast0 6y ago
    > Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? Because Microsoft gutted its in-house testing program in favor of moving fast and letting end users find the bugs. A 3rd party containerized system could passthrough the interfaces that are known to work, massage those that need massaging, and catalog (with user consent) the ones that are unknown. Kind of like Microsoft's compatability modes, but managed by someone else, because Microsoft stopped caring, apparently.
  - erinaceousjones 6y ago
    > Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? Windows 10 'N' Editions ship without a Media Feature Pack which some games rely on - i.e. Rockstar games (GTA V, Red Dead Redemption 2). You can install the media feature pack by downloading it from microsoft, but I've noticed that when the OS has major updates (i.e. the "Creators update" from last fall), the media feature pack gets removed and you have to reinstall it. It's better than it used to be - or at least, it's hidden away from me via Steam etc. - but I remember loads of games coming with installers for specific versions of DirectX, Visual C++ Redistributable libraries, different versions of .Net framework. Not sure what the rationale behind it was compared to "just statically link it" but maybe in this case you couldn't just statically compile supporting microsoft libs into your game engine... And maybe there are/were legal reasons about why you couldn't stick the right versions of .dlls into your game's working directories...?
    - libraryatnight 6y ago
      I made this mistake. I wasn't paying attention when I grabbed a windows keys from my msdn keys and didn't notice I picked N Pro instead of just Pro. I swear every time I have to fix issues related to it I'm going to swap versions and never do.
- oldmanhorton 6y ago
  They're already moving in that direction, though I don't know how mods interact with gamecore: https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-the-microsoft-store/ https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-...
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  What game has ever broken due to Win update
  - tanjtanjtanj 6y ago
    Nier: Automata stopped working for me and a few older games I play lost controller support after the W10 Anniversary update.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    A mod loader for Mirror’s Edge Catalyst broke in a Windows 10 update. That’s actually quite important to me, because I use a mod in order to fix a major problem (xp-gated ability upgrades) in what is otherwise one of my favorite games. The mod loader’s author fixed it, but I wonder what the outcome would have been if this broke 15 years after the game’s release, instead of after just a few years.
  - remexre 6y ago
    The Creator's update, I believe, broke Fallout: New Vegas for a while -- I think some deprecated strings that identify GPUs changed, so a fallback renderer that doesn't work anymore was chosen.
- alibert 6y ago
  Isn't UWP games in the Windows Store what you are looking for? For example, all Xbox Game Pass games are installed via a virtual read only filesystem (XVD Disk Driver). If you need to mod a game, there is an optional setting to unlock write access.
bryanlarsen 6y ago
It looks like Pressure Vessel is a wrapper around flatpak or bubblewrap[0], whichever is found. It bundles a copy of bubblewrap if neither are found. So it does mean that it's not really a container, but that's fine. No need to reinvent the wheel. It's the kernel providing most of the functionality for containerization anyways. [0] https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap
- fock 6y ago
  well, what makes a container then, if bubblewrap doesn't? Only the OCI-compliant packaging? That's very narrow.
  - bryanlarsen 6y ago
    I'm saying that bubblewrap is the container, not Pressure Vessel.
legohead 6y ago
Remember when Valve said Linux was going to be the future of gaming [1], and even went so far as developing a Linux "console" [2]? [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/valve-ceo-why-linux-is-the-future-of-gaming/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/valve-ceo-why-linux-is-the-fut... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_Machine_(hardware_platform) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_Machine_(hardware_platfo...
- calibas 6y ago
  I honestly wonder if the word "Linux" scares people away. Google seems like they try to avoid all mention of what Android really is.
  - ravi-delia 6y ago
    Yeah, people's reactions to the mention of gaming on Linux is absolutely incredible. Everyone has basically just cached the same thought from several years ago. With Proton, every game that doesn't actively attempt to not work on Linux works pretty much just fine.
  - Zhyl 6y ago
    And Chromebooks.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Web apps don't care about which kernel the browser runs on. In what concerns Crostini, it even uses another Linux kernel running on top of a container.
  - b0rsuk 6y ago
    Because every time you mention Linux in a 'casual' setting that one person who tried it 15 years ago will rise up and say how it will never be ready for desktop. How Gimp and LibreOffice might work for a while if you're an amateur, but why limit yourself?
    - 6y ago
Zhyl 6y ago
Here's someone from Collabra doing a talk on it [0]. The idea is pretty straightforward, but actually will fill an important niche in the compatibility and eventual archival space. On a higher level note, this shows that Valve is pretty committed to Linux as a concept. I feel that while a second wave of Steam Machines or Steam OS may be a while away, they're certainly making it much easier for gamers to Switch to Linux if they were so inclined. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrbWbBYAolo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrbWbBYAolo
- bryanlarsen 6y ago
  I think most important to Valve is the threat of Steam OS / Steam Machines rather than their actuality. Work such as this keeps up the threat and helps to keep Microsoft honest.
  - rektide 6y ago
    walking in to your late 1980's IBM sales meeting carrying a coffee-mug from a "Gang of Nine" company (NEC, HP, Compaq).... personally i think we'd see much much much more console-ification of gaming, already, if Steam wasn't around, and to a lesser degree if Linux wasn't an option. keeping game dev alive outside of the narrow walled gardens is very much a real challenge, a real problem, and Steam keeping a free & libre OS in a good state for gaming, & a flexible OS that they can be creative & take new risks & ventures on, unlike the fixed, closed operating systems, is more than a threat to keep the giant honest, it's a way to keep the ecosystem healthy, and a way to insure Valve can adapt & create & try new things. Linux, for Valve as for many others, is freedom, and it matters, here & now, & especially, ongoingly.
- dleslie 6y ago
  IIRC, Steam still does not allow a developer to release a Linux-only title. It may seem like a minor or fair limitation, but the ability to release Windows-only titles is a key component in maintaining the dominance of Windows as a gaming platform. Letting developers release on Linux first might go a long way to increasing adoption. I can imagine releasing on Linux a few months early, dealing with the issues not caught during development, then launching on Windows.
trotFunky 6y ago
> When we queried on why Valve are now putting more up in the open on GitLab, instead of the GitHub that was being used originally, Besset mentioned to us "The projects you see on GitHub are often mirrored from an internal repo. It's awkward and creates friction for community contributions. The projects on gitlab is where we will do our work in the open." I was wondering about that as Proton is on Github. I feel that's a good evolution.
hpfr 6y ago
Sadly, some of Valve’s more interesting Steam features don’t really work on Wayland. For example, you can control your desktop with a connected controller on X11, while controllers only work in-game and in Big Picture Mode on Wayland. Xbox One controllers also didn’t work on Wayland last time I checked. I wouldn’t be surprised if features like Remote Play didn’t work yet either because of Wayland protocols’ security model. Controller hotplugging is also a mess. Hopefully Valve gets to these issues in the future, but since Xwayland doesn’t even work with Nvidia GPU’s (more Nvidia’s fault than Wayland’s as I understand it), it could be a while. In any case, I’m quite thankful to Valve for making Linux viable for gaming, and the occasional game I buy now is always purchased through Steam to support their work.
- iforgotpassword 6y ago
  Just stay with X. Wayland won't be production ready in a long time. Seriously it just came up here a few days ago, and just yesterday a friend of mine tried Linux on his desktop for the first time. He chose fedora for whatever reason, so ended up with gnome on Wayland. Since Steam was important to him and he's running an NVIDIA card, after an hour of struggling I just guided him to disable Wayland. Not only did it fix all Steam issues, but it also fixed a problem he apparently had where applications occasionally lost mouse clicks. Needles to say, his first impression of Linux wasn't too great, but once games worked properly he was happy. Let's see how long he can do without Windows. :)
  - acgkmopvvgvmgv 6y ago
    >Wayland won't be production ready in a long time. With NVIDIA it will never be production ready because NVIDIA doesn't support the Linux standards for Wayland and they don't allow developers to write/use good open drivers and all functionality. Even with X11 and their closed drivers it's a bad experience with glitches in the desktop, but at least the games run.
    - CameronNemo 6y ago
      NVIDIA closed source drivers are supported by at least KWin, and IIRC GNOME, on Wayland. Furthermore they are working with the wlroots/sway maintainer to develop a new way for compositors and graphics card drivers to communicate effectively. TL;DR never say never
conjectures 6y ago
Question: I've not tried steam on linux. Is it bad, usable or nice? Is the GPU support ok?
- gpderetta 6y ago
  Quite usable. With proton many Windows games work out of the box with quite good performance. These days most of the issues are due to DRM and anticheat breaking games that oterwise would run perfectly. I often stream from my steam running on my linux desktop to the steam box connected to my TV and that also work fine. GPU support is really independent of steam, but these days both Nvidia and AMD have pretty good drivers.
  - conjectures 6y ago
    Thanks!
- acgkmopvvgvmgv 6y ago
  It came a long way, it's very impressive what they managed to do in a short period of time. Not only Valve but the community in general even if they weren't directly involved with the gaming part. Manage your expectations, I would treat it like a console, you won't be able to play 100% of "PC" games but you will have a very large selection of games including AAA. And in comparison by raw numbers Linux have many more games than regular consoles, not to mention all the emulators you can use. Performance wise Source engine games run better than on Windows for me and a few Proton (Wine) games runs better too, but that's not the rule as there is a small penalty from the "translation" layers. Vulkan games run very well. If you try to run all games even the ones that Valve didn't approved to run with Proton ("1-click in the UI and it just works") you will have to tinker and do nerd stuff like using different versions or compiling from source. Don't blame the platform if you go that route without proper knowledge and patience. Also in the same line of thinking don't try to use Wayland yet, specially if you have a NVIDIA card because there's no support from them, and I hope they do something about that but I wouldn't hold my breath.
  - conjectures 6y ago

224 points by mfilion 6y ago

Direct link: https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/tree/master/pressure-vessel https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/t...

easton 6y ago

Awesome. Can we have containerized games at some point on Windows too? It’d be great to be able to keep a game and all its mods and extra dependencies together so I don’t have to worry about it breaking because I did a Windows Update. Microsoft has demoed graphics accelerated container-ish things with Windows Sandbox, including running full speed games, although I don’t know if it’s open to developers.

rkangel 6y ago
Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? At some point you are always going to need hardware interfaces and those are provided by the OS kernel. There's only so much you can achieve with containerisation.
- somehnguy 6y ago
  Who says we can't provide those interfaces to the container? My view of it is less like containerization to provide complete isolation from the host/guest, but instead containerization to make the whole game a single 'entity'. Want to move the game from one system to another? Copy the container, that is where everything exists. No running around your filesystem looking for where the game decided to drop random files. Modded out the game and you break something? Just roll back the container.
  - nlightcho 6y ago
    This is how UWP works and it's a UX disaster.
    - somehnguy 6y ago
      That looks like a grossly over engineered version of what I would like. Sidenote: I've been a linux/Mac user for a few years now and recently had to work on stuff for the Windows side of things. All I can say is: wow. what a disaster. documentation is a complete nightmare and there seem to be 14 different versions of anything all fighting to do similar things. dead ends everywhere.
- toast0 6y ago
  > Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? Because Microsoft gutted its in-house testing program in favor of moving fast and letting end users find the bugs. A 3rd party containerized system could passthrough the interfaces that are known to work, massage those that need massaging, and catalog (with user consent) the ones that are unknown. Kind of like Microsoft's compatability modes, but managed by someone else, because Microsoft stopped caring, apparently.
- erinaceousjones 6y ago
  > Why are your games breaking on a Windows update? Windows 10 'N' Editions ship without a Media Feature Pack which some games rely on - i.e. Rockstar games (GTA V, Red Dead Redemption 2). You can install the media feature pack by downloading it from microsoft, but I've noticed that when the OS has major updates (i.e. the "Creators update" from last fall), the media feature pack gets removed and you have to reinstall it. It's better than it used to be - or at least, it's hidden away from me via Steam etc. - but I remember loads of games coming with installers for specific versions of DirectX, Visual C++ Redistributable libraries, different versions of .Net framework. Not sure what the rationale behind it was compared to "just statically link it" but maybe in this case you couldn't just statically compile supporting microsoft libs into your game engine... And maybe there are/were legal reasons about why you couldn't stick the right versions of .dlls into your game's working directories...?
  - libraryatnight 6y ago
    I made this mistake. I wasn't paying attention when I grabbed a windows keys from my msdn keys and didn't notice I picked N Pro instead of just Pro. I swear every time I have to fix issues related to it I'm going to swap versions and never do.
oldmanhorton 6y ago
They're already moving in that direction, though I don't know how mods interact with gamecore: https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-the-microsoft-store/ https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-...
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
What game has ever broken due to Win update
- tanjtanjtanj 6y ago
  Nier: Automata stopped working for me and a few older games I play lost controller support after the W10 Anniversary update.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  A mod loader for Mirror’s Edge Catalyst broke in a Windows 10 update. That’s actually quite important to me, because I use a mod in order to fix a major problem (xp-gated ability upgrades) in what is otherwise one of my favorite games. The mod loader’s author fixed it, but I wonder what the outcome would have been if this broke 15 years after the game’s release, instead of after just a few years.
- remexre 6y ago
  The Creator's update, I believe, broke Fallout: New Vegas for a while -- I think some deprecated strings that identify GPUs changed, so a fallback renderer that doesn't work anymore was chosen.
alibert 6y ago
Isn't UWP games in the Windows Store what you are looking for? For example, all Xbox Game Pass games are installed via a virtual read only filesystem (XVD Disk Driver). If you need to mod a game, there is an optional setting to unlock write access.

bryanlarsen 6y ago

It looks like Pressure Vessel is a wrapper around flatpak or bubblewrap[0], whichever is found. It bundles a copy of bubblewrap if neither are found. So it does mean that it's not really a container, but that's fine. No need to reinvent the wheel. It's the kernel providing most of the functionality for containerization anyways. [0] https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap

fock 6y ago
well, what makes a container then, if bubblewrap doesn't? Only the OCI-compliant packaging? That's very narrow.
- bryanlarsen 6y ago
  I'm saying that bubblewrap is the container, not Pressure Vessel.

legohead 6y ago

Remember when Valve said Linux was going to be the future of gaming [1], and even went so far as developing a Linux "console" [2]? [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/valve-ceo-why-linux-is-the-future-of-gaming/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/valve-ceo-why-linux-is-the-fut... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_Machine_(hardware_platform) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_Machine_(hardware_platfo...

calibas 6y ago
I honestly wonder if the word "Linux" scares people away. Google seems like they try to avoid all mention of what Android really is.
- ravi-delia 6y ago
  Yeah, people's reactions to the mention of gaming on Linux is absolutely incredible. Everyone has basically just cached the same thought from several years ago. With Proton, every game that doesn't actively attempt to not work on Linux works pretty much just fine.
- Zhyl 6y ago
  And Chromebooks.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Web apps don't care about which kernel the browser runs on. In what concerns Crostini, it even uses another Linux kernel running on top of a container.
- b0rsuk 6y ago
  Because every time you mention Linux in a 'casual' setting that one person who tried it 15 years ago will rise up and say how it will never be ready for desktop. How Gimp and LibreOffice might work for a while if you're an amateur, but why limit yourself?
  - 6y ago

Zhyl 6y ago

Here's someone from Collabra doing a talk on it [0]. The idea is pretty straightforward, but actually will fill an important niche in the compatibility and eventual archival space. On a higher level note, this shows that Valve is pretty committed to Linux as a concept. I feel that while a second wave of Steam Machines or Steam OS may be a while away, they're certainly making it much easier for gamers to Switch to Linux if they were so inclined. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrbWbBYAolo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrbWbBYAolo

bryanlarsen 6y ago
I think most important to Valve is the threat of Steam OS / Steam Machines rather than their actuality. Work such as this keeps up the threat and helps to keep Microsoft honest.
- rektide 6y ago
  walking in to your late 1980's IBM sales meeting carrying a coffee-mug from a "Gang of Nine" company (NEC, HP, Compaq).... personally i think we'd see much much much more console-ification of gaming, already, if Steam wasn't around, and to a lesser degree if Linux wasn't an option. keeping game dev alive outside of the narrow walled gardens is very much a real challenge, a real problem, and Steam keeping a free & libre OS in a good state for gaming, & a flexible OS that they can be creative & take new risks & ventures on, unlike the fixed, closed operating systems, is more than a threat to keep the giant honest, it's a way to keep the ecosystem healthy, and a way to insure Valve can adapt & create & try new things. Linux, for Valve as for many others, is freedom, and it matters, here & now, & especially, ongoingly.
dleslie 6y ago
IIRC, Steam still does not allow a developer to release a Linux-only title. It may seem like a minor or fair limitation, but the ability to release Windows-only titles is a key component in maintaining the dominance of Windows as a gaming platform. Letting developers release on Linux first might go a long way to increasing adoption. I can imagine releasing on Linux a few months early, dealing with the issues not caught during development, then launching on Windows.

trotFunky 6y ago

> When we queried on why Valve are now putting more up in the open on GitLab, instead of the GitHub that was being used originally, Besset mentioned to us "The projects you see on GitHub are often mirrored from an internal repo. It's awkward and creates friction for community contributions. The projects on gitlab is where we will do our work in the open." I was wondering about that as Proton is on Github. I feel that's a good evolution.

hpfr 6y ago

Sadly, some of Valve’s more interesting Steam features don’t really work on Wayland. For example, you can control your desktop with a connected controller on X11, while controllers only work in-game and in Big Picture Mode on Wayland. Xbox One controllers also didn’t work on Wayland last time I checked. I wouldn’t be surprised if features like Remote Play didn’t work yet either because of Wayland protocols’ security model. Controller hotplugging is also a mess. Hopefully Valve gets to these issues in the future, but since Xwayland doesn’t even work with Nvidia GPU’s (more Nvidia’s fault than Wayland’s as I understand it), it could be a while. In any case, I’m quite thankful to Valve for making Linux viable for gaming, and the occasional game I buy now is always purchased through Steam to support their work.

iforgotpassword 6y ago
Just stay with X. Wayland won't be production ready in a long time. Seriously it just came up here a few days ago, and just yesterday a friend of mine tried Linux on his desktop for the first time. He chose fedora for whatever reason, so ended up with gnome on Wayland. Since Steam was important to him and he's running an NVIDIA card, after an hour of struggling I just guided him to disable Wayland. Not only did it fix all Steam issues, but it also fixed a problem he apparently had where applications occasionally lost mouse clicks. Needles to say, his first impression of Linux wasn't too great, but once games worked properly he was happy. Let's see how long he can do without Windows. :)
- acgkmopvvgvmgv 6y ago
  >Wayland won't be production ready in a long time. With NVIDIA it will never be production ready because NVIDIA doesn't support the Linux standards for Wayland and they don't allow developers to write/use good open drivers and all functionality. Even with X11 and their closed drivers it's a bad experience with glitches in the desktop, but at least the games run.
  - CameronNemo 6y ago
    NVIDIA closed source drivers are supported by at least KWin, and IIRC GNOME, on Wayland. Furthermore they are working with the wlroots/sway maintainer to develop a new way for compositors and graphics card drivers to communicate effectively. TL;DR never say never

conjectures 6y ago

Question: I've not tried steam on linux. Is it bad, usable or nice? Is the GPU support ok?

gpderetta 6y ago
Quite usable. With proton many Windows games work out of the box with quite good performance. These days most of the issues are due to DRM and anticheat breaking games that oterwise would run perfectly. I often stream from my steam running on my linux desktop to the steam box connected to my TV and that also work fine. GPU support is really independent of steam, but these days both Nvidia and AMD have pretty good drivers.
- conjectures 6y ago
  Thanks!
acgkmopvvgvmgv 6y ago
It came a long way, it's very impressive what they managed to do in a short period of time. Not only Valve but the community in general even if they weren't directly involved with the gaming part. Manage your expectations, I would treat it like a console, you won't be able to play 100% of "PC" games but you will have a very large selection of games including AAA. And in comparison by raw numbers Linux have many more games than regular consoles, not to mention all the emulators you can use. Performance wise Source engine games run better than on Windows for me and a few Proton (Wine) games runs better too, but that's not the rule as there is a small penalty from the "translation" layers. Vulkan games run very well. If you try to run all games even the ones that Valve didn't approved to run with Proton ("1-click in the UI and it just works") you will have to tinker and do nerd stuff like using different versions or compiling from source. Don't blame the platform if you go that route without proper knowledge and patience. Also in the same line of thinking don't try to use Wayland yet, specially if you have a NVIDIA card because there's no support from them, and I hope they do something about that but I wouldn't hold my breath.
- conjectures 6y ago