8 ms·

> Ideologically, it's pretty simple: I don't believe that ideas can be meaningfully owned as property. Software isn't an idea. It required real work of a scarc

> Ideologically, it's pretty simple: I don't believe that ideas can be meaningfully owned as property. Software isn't an idea. It required real work of a scarce-ish resource (software dev time) to create that software. You could make the argument that software, unlike a physical good, can be copied at almost no cost after creation; however, acting as if all forms of IP are "owning an idea" is a weird take. I'd like to put forward the argument that software _patents_ are the IP that most closely resembles the IP the author seems to hate, and the source of much of the troubles associated with IP in the sofware industry. Additionally, abolishing software patents is a realistic short team goal we can work towards, while abolishing all IP is too extreme to get the average developer on board with.

burntsushi 6y ago
> however, acting as if all forms of IP are "owning an idea" is a weird take. Maybe you don't like my phrasing? But fundamentally, intellectual property is a form of property that includes intangible things. How can intangible things be owned? Intangible things aren't scarce. > Software isn't an idea. It required real work of a scarce-ish resource (software dev time) to create that software. You could make the argument that software, unlike a physical good, can be copied at almost no cost after creation It's not about the work required to create it or even the work required to copy it. The point is that it's not scarce. That is, I can use a copy of the software without inhibiting your simultaneous use of it. This is a fundamental difference from a physical good. My use of a physical good inherently inhibits your use. This creates conflict and property is a vehicle for resolving that conflict peacefully. > I'd like to put forward the argument that software _patents_ are the IP that most closely resembles the IP the author seems to hate I undoubtedly hate software patents. But I probably hate patents in the healthcare industry even more, because I perceive them as probably causing even more harm than software patents. My article is just biased towards issues in software because that's what I have the most experience with.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > How can intangible things be owned? Intangible things aren't scarce. Surely you own money? > It's not about the work required to create it or even the work required to copy it. The point is that it's not scarce. Right, the copying part is "free". The thing that software licenses try to protect, the part which is not free, is the effort that goes into making software. The end product is not scarce, but the materials that go into it are. So the thing that these licenses are doing is slapping on a "price" at a strange step in the pipeline–but only because copyright law is strange that way, and for open source projects it is hard to add value to the creation process anyways.
  - rhn_mk1 6y ago
    It sounds like "intangible" is maybe not the perfect word for it. Money is a promise, so a form of a contract, and promises or contracts cannot be meaningfully duplicated, so they are scarce. Recordings of thoughts can be duplicated at will, and so are not scarce. Before someone points out that money is a recording of a promise, I'll mention that multiple recordings of a contract don't make multiple contracts :) > So the thing that these licenses are doing is slapping on a "price" at a strange step in the pipeline–but only because copyright law is strange that way If the law is strange, maybe abolishing is a reasonable reaction? We could conceivably have laws placed at a better step in the pipeline.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      > Before someone points out that money is a recording of a promise, I'll mention that multiple recordings of a contract don't make multiple contracts Yeah, but fractional-reserve banking ;) I'll stop here before we beat this dead metaphor any longer. > If the law is strange, maybe abolishing is a reasonable reaction? We could conceivably have laws placed at a better step in the pipeline. I think pretty much everyone is in agreement with "the law is not great and we should change it", possible most of all the GNU folks. The issue is that this change is slow to come (and somewhat unclear whether it will come at all?) The whole point of the GPL is to use copyright law as a weapon until we can make a world where copyright law doesn't need to exist–I guess a sort of world where you keep around a military in the hopes that at some point people will realize war is useless and we should all be friends. So not using copyleft is being a pacifist (actually, I think this very word appears in the post) but the point is that if you're doing that you're kind of sitting around hoping for a better world while people with guns come and steal your stuff. Which is a valid position, I guess, but I don't think you should be surprised when people come up to you and ask, "why?"
- mgraczyk 6y ago
  Why should it be the case that non-scare resources cannot be owned? What if there were pragmatic reasons for providing property protections to certain non-scare resources? I think your argument would be more convincing with some justification as to why scarcity ought to be necessary for property protections. Property can be conceptualized as a social technology, an idea that is useful for solving problems and accomplishing goals. In that alternative view, we should apply property protections in cases where it's useful, regardless of scarcity.
  - burntsushi 6y ago
    > Why should it be the case that non-scare resources cannot be owned? Well, I don't even know what it means to own something that is non-scarce. What does ownership mean? To me, it's exclusive control (or right to control) some particular piece of property. This is a natural thing that occurs with physical property because of scarcity. But it does not occur naturally with ideas. The only way it happens with ideas is if scarcity is created artificially, e.g., by a state. I'd say "Against Intellectual Property" by Stephan Kinsella is a good deeper dive on this. But some may find it unorthodox.
    - mgraczyk 6y ago
      In the case of intellectual property, it often means a "right to exclude". The right to exclude others from doing something is a property right. Using force to empower some to exclude others from doing something, is itself an idea that may or may not have pragmatic value. The point is that there are useful views on property that do not require the object or thing to be scarce. For example in the US property is legally the bundle of rights people have in relation to an object or thing (including ideas). Edit: And you're right, there's nothing "natural" about IP. It's just a tool that may or may not be useful.
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > In the case of intellectual property, it often means a "right to exclude". The right to exclude others from doing something is a property right. in the case of tangible goods, it makes sense because often one person's use precludes another person's use, and each use has a physical effect on the object in question. One person's use of a software doesn't exclude another person from using the same software, so the 'right to exclude' actually means the right to punish someone for using a software or idea. Exclusive use of physical goods makes sense because they are rivalrous. Exclusive use of an idea relies on a complex of relations including a regulatory state with a coercive apparatus. If someone wants to use my house they deprive me of my use of that house to the extent that they use it, and its natural that I would use force to prevent it. In this view, the use of the state coercive apparatus is on my behalf as a person who needs a house but lives in a society that doesn't want houses to belong to anyone strong enough to take them from the (former) owner. If someone wants to use a design that I have created and patented they aren't preventing me from using the design, they are just refusing to pay a license fee for my patent. Essentially treating physical goods like properties that can be owned allows people to use them and predict their availability and incentivizes the creation of more physical goods, allowing intangible goods to be treated like property incentivizes rent-seeking behavior and allows people to collect rents on goods that could be duplicated for little to no cost. It may be more useful to consider how copyright has been shaped by powerful interests to reflect their desires rather than how property rights in physical goods arise naturally from the existence and use of rivalrous/scarce goods.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > How can intangible things be owned? The same way anything else can be; “ownership” is the legal right to exclude others from some set of actions with regard to something. Whether the something is tangible or not is basically immaterial, except as tongue set of possible actions that might be governed by ownership. > Intangible things aren't scarce. So? Property is about structuring incentives to create value, it is not intrinsically tied to scarcity (except that property—the legal exclusive privilege—is inherently scarce even if it's subject is not.)
  - burntsushi 6y ago
    > Property is about structuring incentives to create value I think we just have a fundamental disagreement. That's not how I see property. I see property as a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. And I do see it as intrinsically tied to scarcity.
    - rswail 6y ago
      Considering possession of land is one of the leading causes of war, I would hardly see property as a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. Money in exchange for property as a lubricant for exchange of property (or the ownership and control over that property) is a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution.
      - burntsushi 6y ago
        Strongly disagree. War and conflict is always possible, no matter what you do. But if we had no system for saying "this is mine and that is yours," then even the smallest disputes could lead to violence.
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > Considering possession of land is one of the leading causes of war, I would hardly see property as a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. Peaceful conflict resolution only works when all parties to the conflict desire peace. In the presence of a conflict among peace-desiring parties, property is the notion that one party has the right to determine disposition of the tangible item in question. If they didn’t have a concept of property that they all assented to, then they would be more likely to fight about it. > Money in exchange for property as a lubricant for exchange of property (or the ownership and control over that property) is a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. The right to exchange for consideration presupposes property rights. You’re agreeing with the OP
- CaptArmchair 6y ago
  > The point is that it's not scarce. That is, I can use a copy of the software without inhibiting your simultaneous use of it. That depends. You could view the idea in it's abstract, intangible form; and then the manifestation of that idea in the real word, as symbols (letters, numbers, drawings, notes,...) which reflect that idea. When you download code, you ultimately make a copy of manifestation represented as electromagnetic signals encoded as digital symbols. The process of having a novel idea consists of assembling mental constructs together as a thought proces and then expressing that through shared social constructs (language, art, symbols,...). What is protected by IP is your claim to be the first person - the original author - having had the idea. Not the idea itself. The opposite of that is not making that distinction, collapsing the process of making copies of the manifestation of an idea, and having the idea itself into one. This would imply that being the first to have constructed a novel idea is no argument for a claim to intellectual ownership. The real problem with copyright, though, isn't making that first claim. It's the abstract notion that rights to claim IP can be extended and transferred. Which creates a very different can of worms.
  - burntsushi 6y ago
    > What is protected by IP is your claim to be the first person - the original author - having had the idea. Not the idea itself. I think it's just a manner of speaking. In order to create this protection, you have to elevate ideas to some kind of property by creating an artificial scarcity. Or at least, that's the result produced by a system of intellectual property. That artificial scarcity, introduced by a coercive state, is what I'm opposed to. > The real problem with copyright, though, isn't making that first claim. It's the abstract notion that rights to claim IP can be extended and transferred. Which creates a very different can of worms. Yes, removing the latter while keeping the former would be a HUGE improvement on the status quo I think. But I still see the former as problematic. :-)
    - alexvoda 6y ago
      Authorship can still be protected in two ways without property on ideas 1. Ideas as a secret. You can create scarcity at the initial step of sharing. You can even create monopolies at this step. The framework for this is NDAs. The vital difference here is that once broadcast an idea can no longer be exploited by the author. And once shared with a third party, repeated use can not be controlled. 2. Authorship as attribution. This is done by preventing plagiarism. Replacing IP law with NDA contract law and attribution protection would still allow selling software but not subscriptions for software you run locally. Also it would allow everone to record radio broadcasts, which is illegal now but was never enforced. I strongly believe the initial sharing of an idea/software/music/etc. Is the right step to create scarcity. Once something is provided to the public, the public should be able to use it in any way as long as attribution is preserved.
- BerislavLopac 6y ago
  > intellectual property is a form of property that includes intangible things What we call "intellectual property" is not "property" at all - it's simply a government-enforced monopoly on use of certain ideas (in case of patents) or their expressions (for copyright and trademarks).
  - burntsushi 6y ago
    Well, yes, that's pretty much exactly the viewpoint I'm espousing here. :-) That is, that ideas cannot be owned and I disagree with the artificial scarcity created by governments.
    - rswail 6y ago
      The entire point of patent and copyright is (in the US): "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries." So it's government granting specific rights over intellectual items not the items themselves. The name is confusing, it's rights granted over intellectual property ("writings and discoveries") to encourage the creators to share them for the common good.
      - burntsushi 6y ago
        The manifestation of that is ownership over ideas. If I recite the Harry Potter series to someone and they copy it down and publish it, they've violated copyright. That only happens because IP grants ownership over the idea (the story of Harry Potter) itself. I'm not sure if we are agreeing and just missing each other on the words, it if there is something more substantive between us?
- yiyus 6y ago
  > Intangible things aren't scarce. That's not true. Time is scarce. Good ideas are scarce (maybe because intelligence is scarce too). Beauty is scarce. Quality of life is scarce. Perfection is terribly scarce... And I consider that I own my time, for example. I can either consume it myself or I can use it to serve something or someone, probably in exchange of some amount of money.
  - unishark 6y ago
    In terms of physics, the energy you expend when doing that work is the scarce quantity. Time is just the bookkeeping system. Good ideas are uncommon but I wouldn't call them scarce, since they can still break the rules of scarcity and multiply without bound (i.e. no true limit on the number of people having the exact same idea).
    - yiyus 6y ago
      You are taking an extremely theoretical point of view. There is also no theoretical limit in the number of cars we can produce, for example. I would even say that it is easier to produce a new car than a great idea.
- feanaro 6y ago
  > But fundamentally, intellectual property is a form of property that includes intangible things. I think the idea of code (or information in general) being intangible has some problems. Point me to information which exists without being encoded in physical phenomena. All information we've ever encountered exists in the form of specific configurations of matter and energy, and is therefore tangible, just as a house or a car is. It is just barely tangible, since there are many more physical configurations which can reasonably encode information than there are physical configurations corresponding to a usable car. The term scarcity as usually applied to information is also somewhat problematic because it is not applied consistently between "physical" goods and information. Yes, the fact is that information is easy to copy because it is easily encodeable in a wider range of physical configurations. But we cannot reasonably ignore the effort required to produce it if we want to make a fair comparison. The quality we are interested in is how hard it is to obtain, to have something in the first place, not just whether it is easy to copy. Code is easy to copy, but is hard to produce, and hence I would argue it is still a scarce resource in this sense. > My use of a physical good inherently inhibits your use. Not if you first make your own copy of the physical good, the same way you do with information. You said it yourself: you can use your copy of the software without inhibiting someone's simultaneous use. It's just that information has the boon and burden of being easily copyable once you've initially obtained it.
  - jbob2000 6y ago
    You’re conflating software with “the physical medium used to store and run software”. Computers, like the paper that books are printed on, are scarce, but the software or story, is not. I can recite Harry Potter without the book, the story has no scarcity to it. Similarly, I can write a for loop without reading it’s structure from a hard drive.
    - feanaro 6y ago
      I don't think I am, but I am using the word in a way that is not very common, in order to convey a lesson. Could you have recited Harry Potter easily before you've heard it the first time?
anticristi 6y ago
I don't get why anyone believes that owning an idea is more abstract that owning a house. I can easily "open" any door with an ax and/or battery-driven grinder. Ownership is a legal construct of a society, meant to incentivese certain behaviours. It comes with both good and bad. This is true both for houses (inner cities are monopolized by the rich) as for software (key technologies being monopolized by few companies).
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  Because exclusive use of a physical item is a fact of nature whereas exclusive use of an idea is a social construct that relies on a coercive social apparatus. The property rights we use for physical items are a social construct that is grounded in reality, whereas intellectual property is a social construct that is derived from a particular value-laden perspective.
  - anticristi 6y ago
    Ownership in capitalism has nothing to do with usage. If I rent a car, I am using it, but I definitely don't own it. Ownership is about a right, the right to decide what to do with a property. Ownership is also not exclusive: Several people can own a house or a car simultaneously. Communist countries tried to reconcile ownership with usage by enforcing that everyone owns one flat at maximum. The results are mixed. To sum up, I still think that ownership is a social construct, be it for a physical item or an intellectual artefact.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      Not all social constructs are created equal. Ownership of tangibles is grounded in the scarcity of tangibles. Ownership of intangibles is grounded in a value-laden perspective.
      - anticristi 6y ago
        I find scarcity of tangibles pretty artificial. Who says that a 200m2 house cannot be split into two 100m2 houses? Who says that you cannot replace a private swimming pool with another 100m2 house? Yes, some tangibles are scarce (water, petrol, raw materials, etc.). But what we actually charge for is pretty intangible, e.g., time of people, utility of a location.

burntsushi 6y ago

> however, acting as if all forms of IP are "owning an idea" is a weird take. Maybe you don't like my phrasing? But fundamentally, intellectual property is a form of property that includes intangible things. How can intangible things be owned? Intangible things aren't scarce. > Software isn't an idea. It required real work of a scarce-ish resource (software dev time) to create that software. You could make the argument that software, unlike a physical good, can be copied at almost no cost after creation It's not about the work required to create it or even the work required to copy it. The point is that it's not scarce. That is, I can use a copy of the software without inhibiting your simultaneous use of it. This is a fundamental difference from a physical good. My use of a physical good inherently inhibits your use. This creates conflict and property is a vehicle for resolving that conflict peacefully. > I'd like to put forward the argument that software _patents_ are the IP that most closely resembles the IP the author seems to hate I undoubtedly hate software patents. But I probably hate patents in the healthcare industry even more, because I perceive them as probably causing even more harm than software patents. My article is just biased towards issues in software because that's what I have the most experience with.

saagarjha 6y ago
> How can intangible things be owned? Intangible things aren't scarce. Surely you own money? > It's not about the work required to create it or even the work required to copy it. The point is that it's not scarce. Right, the copying part is "free". The thing that software licenses try to protect, the part which is not free, is the effort that goes into making software. The end product is not scarce, but the materials that go into it are. So the thing that these licenses are doing is slapping on a "price" at a strange step in the pipeline–but only because copyright law is strange that way, and for open source projects it is hard to add value to the creation process anyways.
- rhn_mk1 6y ago
  It sounds like "intangible" is maybe not the perfect word for it. Money is a promise, so a form of a contract, and promises or contracts cannot be meaningfully duplicated, so they are scarce. Recordings of thoughts can be duplicated at will, and so are not scarce. Before someone points out that money is a recording of a promise, I'll mention that multiple recordings of a contract don't make multiple contracts :) > So the thing that these licenses are doing is slapping on a "price" at a strange step in the pipeline–but only because copyright law is strange that way If the law is strange, maybe abolishing is a reasonable reaction? We could conceivably have laws placed at a better step in the pipeline.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    > Before someone points out that money is a recording of a promise, I'll mention that multiple recordings of a contract don't make multiple contracts Yeah, but fractional-reserve banking ;) I'll stop here before we beat this dead metaphor any longer. > If the law is strange, maybe abolishing is a reasonable reaction? We could conceivably have laws placed at a better step in the pipeline. I think pretty much everyone is in agreement with "the law is not great and we should change it", possible most of all the GNU folks. The issue is that this change is slow to come (and somewhat unclear whether it will come at all?) The whole point of the GPL is to use copyright law as a weapon until we can make a world where copyright law doesn't need to exist–I guess a sort of world where you keep around a military in the hopes that at some point people will realize war is useless and we should all be friends. So not using copyleft is being a pacifist (actually, I think this very word appears in the post) but the point is that if you're doing that you're kind of sitting around hoping for a better world while people with guns come and steal your stuff. Which is a valid position, I guess, but I don't think you should be surprised when people come up to you and ask, "why?"
mgraczyk 6y ago
Why should it be the case that non-scare resources cannot be owned? What if there were pragmatic reasons for providing property protections to certain non-scare resources? I think your argument would be more convincing with some justification as to why scarcity ought to be necessary for property protections. Property can be conceptualized as a social technology, an idea that is useful for solving problems and accomplishing goals. In that alternative view, we should apply property protections in cases where it's useful, regardless of scarcity.
- burntsushi 6y ago
  > Why should it be the case that non-scare resources cannot be owned? Well, I don't even know what it means to own something that is non-scarce. What does ownership mean? To me, it's exclusive control (or right to control) some particular piece of property. This is a natural thing that occurs with physical property because of scarcity. But it does not occur naturally with ideas. The only way it happens with ideas is if scarcity is created artificially, e.g., by a state. I'd say "Against Intellectual Property" by Stephan Kinsella is a good deeper dive on this. But some may find it unorthodox.
  - mgraczyk 6y ago
    In the case of intellectual property, it often means a "right to exclude". The right to exclude others from doing something is a property right. Using force to empower some to exclude others from doing something, is itself an idea that may or may not have pragmatic value. The point is that there are useful views on property that do not require the object or thing to be scarce. For example in the US property is legally the bundle of rights people have in relation to an object or thing (including ideas). Edit: And you're right, there's nothing "natural" about IP. It's just a tool that may or may not be useful.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > In the case of intellectual property, it often means a "right to exclude". The right to exclude others from doing something is a property right. in the case of tangible goods, it makes sense because often one person's use precludes another person's use, and each use has a physical effect on the object in question. One person's use of a software doesn't exclude another person from using the same software, so the 'right to exclude' actually means the right to punish someone for using a software or idea. Exclusive use of physical goods makes sense because they are rivalrous. Exclusive use of an idea relies on a complex of relations including a regulatory state with a coercive apparatus. If someone wants to use my house they deprive me of my use of that house to the extent that they use it, and its natural that I would use force to prevent it. In this view, the use of the state coercive apparatus is on my behalf as a person who needs a house but lives in a society that doesn't want houses to belong to anyone strong enough to take them from the (former) owner. If someone wants to use a design that I have created and patented they aren't preventing me from using the design, they are just refusing to pay a license fee for my patent. Essentially treating physical goods like properties that can be owned allows people to use them and predict their availability and incentivizes the creation of more physical goods, allowing intangible goods to be treated like property incentivizes rent-seeking behavior and allows people to collect rents on goods that could be duplicated for little to no cost. It may be more useful to consider how copyright has been shaped by powerful interests to reflect their desires rather than how property rights in physical goods arise naturally from the existence and use of rivalrous/scarce goods.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> How can intangible things be owned? The same way anything else can be; “ownership” is the legal right to exclude others from some set of actions with regard to something. Whether the something is tangible or not is basically immaterial, except as tongue set of possible actions that might be governed by ownership. > Intangible things aren't scarce. So? Property is about structuring incentives to create value, it is not intrinsically tied to scarcity (except that property—the legal exclusive privilege—is inherently scarce even if it's subject is not.)
- burntsushi 6y ago
  > Property is about structuring incentives to create value I think we just have a fundamental disagreement. That's not how I see property. I see property as a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. And I do see it as intrinsically tied to scarcity.
  - rswail 6y ago
    Considering possession of land is one of the leading causes of war, I would hardly see property as a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. Money in exchange for property as a lubricant for exchange of property (or the ownership and control over that property) is a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution.
    - burntsushi 6y ago
      Strongly disagree. War and conflict is always possible, no matter what you do. But if we had no system for saying "this is mine and that is yours," then even the smallest disputes could lead to violence.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > Considering possession of land is one of the leading causes of war, I would hardly see property as a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. Peaceful conflict resolution only works when all parties to the conflict desire peace. In the presence of a conflict among peace-desiring parties, property is the notion that one party has the right to determine disposition of the tangible item in question. If they didn’t have a concept of property that they all assented to, then they would be more likely to fight about it. > Money in exchange for property as a lubricant for exchange of property (or the ownership and control over that property) is a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. The right to exchange for consideration presupposes property rights. You’re agreeing with the OP
CaptArmchair 6y ago
> The point is that it's not scarce. That is, I can use a copy of the software without inhibiting your simultaneous use of it. That depends. You could view the idea in it's abstract, intangible form; and then the manifestation of that idea in the real word, as symbols (letters, numbers, drawings, notes,...) which reflect that idea. When you download code, you ultimately make a copy of manifestation represented as electromagnetic signals encoded as digital symbols. The process of having a novel idea consists of assembling mental constructs together as a thought proces and then expressing that through shared social constructs (language, art, symbols,...). What is protected by IP is your claim to be the first person - the original author - having had the idea. Not the idea itself. The opposite of that is not making that distinction, collapsing the process of making copies of the manifestation of an idea, and having the idea itself into one. This would imply that being the first to have constructed a novel idea is no argument for a claim to intellectual ownership. The real problem with copyright, though, isn't making that first claim. It's the abstract notion that rights to claim IP can be extended and transferred. Which creates a very different can of worms.
- burntsushi 6y ago
  > What is protected by IP is your claim to be the first person - the original author - having had the idea. Not the idea itself. I think it's just a manner of speaking. In order to create this protection, you have to elevate ideas to some kind of property by creating an artificial scarcity. Or at least, that's the result produced by a system of intellectual property. That artificial scarcity, introduced by a coercive state, is what I'm opposed to. > The real problem with copyright, though, isn't making that first claim. It's the abstract notion that rights to claim IP can be extended and transferred. Which creates a very different can of worms. Yes, removing the latter while keeping the former would be a HUGE improvement on the status quo I think. But I still see the former as problematic. :-)
  - alexvoda 6y ago
    Authorship can still be protected in two ways without property on ideas 1. Ideas as a secret. You can create scarcity at the initial step of sharing. You can even create monopolies at this step. The framework for this is NDAs. The vital difference here is that once broadcast an idea can no longer be exploited by the author. And once shared with a third party, repeated use can not be controlled. 2. Authorship as attribution. This is done by preventing plagiarism. Replacing IP law with NDA contract law and attribution protection would still allow selling software but not subscriptions for software you run locally. Also it would allow everone to record radio broadcasts, which is illegal now but was never enforced. I strongly believe the initial sharing of an idea/software/music/etc. Is the right step to create scarcity. Once something is provided to the public, the public should be able to use it in any way as long as attribution is preserved.
BerislavLopac 6y ago
> intellectual property is a form of property that includes intangible things What we call "intellectual property" is not "property" at all - it's simply a government-enforced monopoly on use of certain ideas (in case of patents) or their expressions (for copyright and trademarks).
- burntsushi 6y ago
  Well, yes, that's pretty much exactly the viewpoint I'm espousing here. :-) That is, that ideas cannot be owned and I disagree with the artificial scarcity created by governments.
  - rswail 6y ago
    The entire point of patent and copyright is (in the US): "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries." So it's government granting specific rights over intellectual items not the items themselves. The name is confusing, it's rights granted over intellectual property ("writings and discoveries") to encourage the creators to share them for the common good.
    - burntsushi 6y ago
      The manifestation of that is ownership over ideas. If I recite the Harry Potter series to someone and they copy it down and publish it, they've violated copyright. That only happens because IP grants ownership over the idea (the story of Harry Potter) itself. I'm not sure if we are agreeing and just missing each other on the words, it if there is something more substantive between us?
yiyus 6y ago
> Intangible things aren't scarce. That's not true. Time is scarce. Good ideas are scarce (maybe because intelligence is scarce too). Beauty is scarce. Quality of life is scarce. Perfection is terribly scarce... And I consider that I own my time, for example. I can either consume it myself or I can use it to serve something or someone, probably in exchange of some amount of money.
- unishark 6y ago
  In terms of physics, the energy you expend when doing that work is the scarce quantity. Time is just the bookkeeping system. Good ideas are uncommon but I wouldn't call them scarce, since they can still break the rules of scarcity and multiply without bound (i.e. no true limit on the number of people having the exact same idea).
  - yiyus 6y ago
    You are taking an extremely theoretical point of view. There is also no theoretical limit in the number of cars we can produce, for example. I would even say that it is easier to produce a new car than a great idea.
feanaro 6y ago
> But fundamentally, intellectual property is a form of property that includes intangible things. I think the idea of code (or information in general) being intangible has some problems. Point me to information which exists without being encoded in physical phenomena. All information we've ever encountered exists in the form of specific configurations of matter and energy, and is therefore tangible, just as a house or a car is. It is just barely tangible, since there are many more physical configurations which can reasonably encode information than there are physical configurations corresponding to a usable car. The term scarcity as usually applied to information is also somewhat problematic because it is not applied consistently between "physical" goods and information. Yes, the fact is that information is easy to copy because it is easily encodeable in a wider range of physical configurations. But we cannot reasonably ignore the effort required to produce it if we want to make a fair comparison. The quality we are interested in is how hard it is to obtain, to have something in the first place, not just whether it is easy to copy. Code is easy to copy, but is hard to produce, and hence I would argue it is still a scarce resource in this sense. > My use of a physical good inherently inhibits your use. Not if you first make your own copy of the physical good, the same way you do with information. You said it yourself: you can use your copy of the software without inhibiting someone's simultaneous use. It's just that information has the boon and burden of being easily copyable once you've initially obtained it.
- jbob2000 6y ago
  You’re conflating software with “the physical medium used to store and run software”. Computers, like the paper that books are printed on, are scarce, but the software or story, is not. I can recite Harry Potter without the book, the story has no scarcity to it. Similarly, I can write a for loop without reading it’s structure from a hard drive.
  - feanaro 6y ago
    I don't think I am, but I am using the word in a way that is not very common, in order to convey a lesson. Could you have recited Harry Potter easily before you've heard it the first time?

anticristi 6y ago

I don't get why anyone believes that owning an idea is more abstract that owning a house. I can easily "open" any door with an ax and/or battery-driven grinder. Ownership is a legal construct of a society, meant to incentivese certain behaviours. It comes with both good and bad. This is true both for houses (inner cities are monopolized by the rich) as for software (key technologies being monopolized by few companies).

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
Because exclusive use of a physical item is a fact of nature whereas exclusive use of an idea is a social construct that relies on a coercive social apparatus. The property rights we use for physical items are a social construct that is grounded in reality, whereas intellectual property is a social construct that is derived from a particular value-laden perspective.
- anticristi 6y ago
  Ownership in capitalism has nothing to do with usage. If I rent a car, I am using it, but I definitely don't own it. Ownership is about a right, the right to decide what to do with a property. Ownership is also not exclusive: Several people can own a house or a car simultaneously. Communist countries tried to reconcile ownership with usage by enforcing that everyone owns one flat at maximum. The results are mixed. To sum up, I still think that ownership is a social construct, be it for a physical item or an intellectual artefact.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    Not all social constructs are created equal. Ownership of tangibles is grounded in the scarcity of tangibles. Ownership of intangibles is grounded in a value-laden perspective.
    - anticristi 6y ago
      I find scarcity of tangibles pretty artificial. Who says that a 200m2 house cannot be split into two 100m2 houses? Who says that you cannot replace a private swimming pool with another 100m2 house? Yes, some tangibles are scarce (water, petrol, raw materials, etc.). But what we actually charge for is pretty intangible, e.g., time of people, utility of a location.