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All the muslim world does 4-week intermittent fasting every year. That'd make it easy to test the asumption of the paper on a large scale population

by d--b 6y ago

alltakendamned 6y ago
They do, but my colleagues tell me that the food they eat when they break their fast is often heavier than usual, and they might eat more as well. More than one is gaining weight during Ramadan :)
- amingilani 6y ago
  It may be wise to test your colleagues assumption while we're at it as well :)
Broken_Hippo 6y ago
1. Some folks cheat. 2. Some, who you would think are otherwise healthy, cannot fast (I have a friend that found out he cannot fast. He was instead hospitalized). 3. The severity of the fast depends on the time of year the fast falls and where in the world you are. Right now, it is certainly worse in Norway (where the days very long in June) than it is in the southern hemisphere, where the days have their winter lengths. The last two can be somewhat accounted for (and already are: Folks that can't fast are exempt and special rules for places that get midnight sun). We can't really control for the first one, especially with real cultural taboo against breaking the fast during the day.
st1x7 6y ago
A very important difference is that you can't drink water during a Ramadan fast. Regardless of what you're doing with your food, deliberately dehydrating yourself is pretty much never justified.
- snicker7 6y ago
  "never justified" A religious obligation won't count as justification?
  - 0xffff2 6y ago
    I think the logical interpretation of GP is that it's never justified from the perspective of physical health. Whether religious obligations outweigh ones health is a completely personal decision that no outsider gets any say in.
- alperars 6y ago
  But the article states no eating and no drinking as fasting so it also involves deliberate dehydrating.
  - st1x7 6y ago
    Yes, because they selected subjects who were observing Ramadan and that makes their study easier to carry out. My point is that the dehydration is counterproductive.
- brixon 6y ago
  Most articles and videos on intermittent fasting say that drinking water is fine. Artificialy sweetened drinks are also a no go.
  - st1x7 6y ago
    Exactly. Maybe I wasn't clear in my comment above. My point is that most resources on intermittent fasting allow (and actually encourage) drinking a lot of water, and rightfully so. At the same time a lot of the research is done on subjects who observe Ramadan fasting and do not drink water. This difference has to influence the results in some way.
- wavepruner 6y ago
  When I first heard of abstaining from water while fasting I also had a strong emotional reaction to the idea. After realizing that water is a byproduct of catabolism, I'm willing to entertain the idea that it is beneficial.
  - st1x7 6y ago
    It's not an emotional reaction - we have plenty of evidence about the negative impact of dehydration and no substantial evidence in favor of it. > After realizing that water is a byproduct of catabolism, I'm willing to entertain the idea that it is beneficial. The two parts of this sentence aren't connected by logic.
    - wavepruner 6y ago
      I'll clarify the sentence. The body produces water as a byproduct of ATP (energy) metabolism. During a fast, fat and other tissues are broken down by catabolic reactions to accomplish this. Knowing this, I am willing to entertain the idea that abstaining from water for a period of time can be beneficial, or perhaps I should say at least not harmful, because there are mechanisms in the body that synthesize water. Obviously, a sufficiently long period of time without water would be harmful. I haven't done the math to figure out how much water this is, and so I do not know how sufficient it is to keep minimally hydrated during a water-fast. I'm just saying that the thought of abstaining from water during a fast isn't necessarily as dangerous as it sounds, because your body can and does produce it's own water as a by-product of energy metabolism.
      - st1x7 6y ago
        > I haven't done the math to figure out how much water this is From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_water > Humans obtain only about 8-10% of their water needs through metabolic water production

All the muslim world does 4-week intermittent fasting every year. That'd make it easy to test the asumption of the paper on a large scale population

by d--b 6y ago

All the muslim world does 4-week intermittent fasting every year. That'd make it easy to test the asumption of the paper on a large scale population

alltakendamned 6y ago

They do, but my colleagues tell me that the food they eat when they break their fast is often heavier than usual, and they might eat more as well. More than one is gaining weight during Ramadan :)

amingilani 6y ago
It may be wise to test your colleagues assumption while we're at it as well :)

Broken_Hippo 6y ago

1. Some folks cheat. 2. Some, who you would think are otherwise healthy, cannot fast (I have a friend that found out he cannot fast. He was instead hospitalized). 3. The severity of the fast depends on the time of year the fast falls and where in the world you are. Right now, it is certainly worse in Norway (where the days very long in June) than it is in the southern hemisphere, where the days have their winter lengths. The last two can be somewhat accounted for (and already are: Folks that can't fast are exempt and special rules for places that get midnight sun). We can't really control for the first one, especially with real cultural taboo against breaking the fast during the day.

st1x7 6y ago

A very important difference is that you can't drink water during a Ramadan fast. Regardless of what you're doing with your food, deliberately dehydrating yourself is pretty much never justified.

snicker7 6y ago
"never justified" A religious obligation won't count as justification?
- 0xffff2 6y ago
  I think the logical interpretation of GP is that it's never justified from the perspective of physical health. Whether religious obligations outweigh ones health is a completely personal decision that no outsider gets any say in.
alperars 6y ago
But the article states no eating and no drinking as fasting so it also involves deliberate dehydrating.
- st1x7 6y ago
  Yes, because they selected subjects who were observing Ramadan and that makes their study easier to carry out. My point is that the dehydration is counterproductive.
brixon 6y ago
Most articles and videos on intermittent fasting say that drinking water is fine. Artificialy sweetened drinks are also a no go.
- st1x7 6y ago
  Exactly. Maybe I wasn't clear in my comment above. My point is that most resources on intermittent fasting allow (and actually encourage) drinking a lot of water, and rightfully so. At the same time a lot of the research is done on subjects who observe Ramadan fasting and do not drink water. This difference has to influence the results in some way.
wavepruner 6y ago
When I first heard of abstaining from water while fasting I also had a strong emotional reaction to the idea. After realizing that water is a byproduct of catabolism, I'm willing to entertain the idea that it is beneficial.
- st1x7 6y ago
  It's not an emotional reaction - we have plenty of evidence about the negative impact of dehydration and no substantial evidence in favor of it. > After realizing that water is a byproduct of catabolism, I'm willing to entertain the idea that it is beneficial. The two parts of this sentence aren't connected by logic.
  - wavepruner 6y ago
    I'll clarify the sentence. The body produces water as a byproduct of ATP (energy) metabolism. During a fast, fat and other tissues are broken down by catabolic reactions to accomplish this. Knowing this, I am willing to entertain the idea that abstaining from water for a period of time can be beneficial, or perhaps I should say at least not harmful, because there are mechanisms in the body that synthesize water. Obviously, a sufficiently long period of time without water would be harmful. I haven't done the math to figure out how much water this is, and so I do not know how sufficient it is to keep minimally hydrated during a water-fast. I'm just saying that the thought of abstaining from water during a fast isn't necessarily as dangerous as it sounds, because your body can and does produce it's own water as a by-product of energy metabolism.
    - st1x7 6y ago
      > I haven't done the math to figure out how much water this is From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_water > Humans obtain only about 8-10% of their water needs through metabolic water production