8 ms·

partisanship makes people stupid.

by seppin 6y ago

lliamander 6y ago
Please show me the evidence of Russian influence. There has been plenty of evidence that the contents of the laptop are authentic.
- free_rms 6y ago
  Even if they're not authentic, it could just be a regular old lie. You know, lies? Like happen all the time in politics? Why does everything have to be a Russian conspiracy. There was a front page article on HN the other day with people taking a Russian Death Ray seriously. Taking it seriously! Come on, people.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    The timing if the this all coming out is super suspicious, but the "it's the Russians!" thing just made me groan. If Democrats had simply said it was a lie I would have found that much more believable.
    - atemerev 6y ago
      But they can’t, because they know this is not a lie. It is actually quite possible that Russians have something to do with this — I say it as a Russian; they did nearly the same thing with DNC leaks in 2016. But the issue is not “who did it”, the question is whether the materials are authentic or not. DNC leaks were authentic, and that was enough for Americans to tip the election outcome in 2016. Hunter Biden materials look authentic, too.
      - deanCommie 6y ago
        I genuinely would like to understand the position of someone like you to whom this material looks authentic. How do you rationalize this series of events piling on top of each other? https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/jkjeib/how_a_fake_persona_laid_the_groundwork_for_a/gaji4e4/ https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/jkjeib/how_a_fake... What about the material looks authentic to you?
        atemerev 6y ago
        I think that it is quite likely that the laptop was planted, the whole acquisition story is fake, and this is an orchestrated campaign optimized for maximum impact. I am not an idiot. However, the contents of the laptop (emails and pictures — at least some of them) were corroborated by multiple sources. Their timings agree with the events of Ukraine affair, which led to Trump’s impeachment proceedings. I can’t say anything about the laptop; perhaps it was planted by the Russian intelligence or Trump campaign spinners. However, its contents looks real to me.
        evgen 6y ago
        You do realize that the mechanism you use to 'wash' disinformation is to mix it in with other legitimate (hacked) data, right? If the party you are attacking denies the validity you have a few real bits of data you can point to and use to call the other party a liar. If the party you are attacking tries to explain the nuance that there is some true and some false data in there then you use that against them to try to claim it is all true or that they are admitting that your specific bits of disinformation are true, by the time people hear the full statement it is already too late. Seriously, it has been over four years since Clinton and the Podesta emails. How can anyone still be this naive?
        free_rms 6y ago
        Naive is buying into a jingoist narrative about how everything bad in our own country is because of the scary Russians and Chinese. We've got billion-dollar Presidential campaigns and 100M-dollar senate campaigns, but an office floor full of internet trolls are the ones swinging the balance of power in our country? Who's naive? Take some responsibility -- if we suck, that's on us.
        evgen 6y ago
        They are not swinging the balance of power, and at this point most of the trolls and disinformation artists are in the US working for conservative think-tanks and Republican campaigns. In case you hadn't noticed this big fat nothingburger is going nowhere. Like a lot of other new stories of late is mostly serves to separate the desperate and gullible from the rest of us.
    - achileas 6y ago
      The story literally originated in pro-Russian Ukrainian circles to fight against anti-corruption efforts there while Biden was VP: https://time.com/5902557/hunter-biden-rudy-giuliani-ukraine/ https://time.com/5902557/hunter-biden-rudy-giuliani-ukraine/
      - free_rms 6y ago
        If your kid is getting 600k/yr for a no-show job, you don't get to call your interventions "anti-corruption". Literally being involved at all is a conflict of interest.
        seppin 6y ago
        Yes accuse Biden of corruption so Trump's corruption just doesn't bite as hard, and be maybe sneaks a few more votes. This is a cynical game and I'm sick of so many people playing it willingly.
        free_rms 6y ago
        That's not very charitable at all. Can't one be upset at all corruption? Trump's gets coverage plenty of places, wall-to-wall. Yet any mention of Biden gets dogpiled by comments like yours. For the record, I'm a Bernie voter and reluctant Biden voter.
        seppin 6y ago
        Because getting a sweetheart deal b/c your dad was VP and money laundering / theft / bribery are not two sides of the same coin. One sucks but occurs everywhere, the other is illegal.
        free_rms 6y ago
        So who's gonna hold Biden accountable once he's President? You? The NYT and WaPo? Sure doesn't sound like it.
- markhahn 6y ago
  No, there is evidence that there are corroboratable bits scattered throughout. That doesn't in any way corroborate the whole.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    Bobulinski has stated that Joe Biden was well aware of his son's business dealings (contrary to Biden's prior public statements) and affirms that "the big guy" refers to Joe Biden when talking about payment from foreign governments. He's handed over to the FBI hundreds of emails, documents, texts, some audio recordings, etc.
    - seppin 6y ago
      Right, as said no evidence.
      - lliamander 6y ago
        If personal testimony and access to private emails and documents from a non-partisan actor is not evidence, what is?
        seppin 6y ago
        Bobulinski is as random of an accuser as it gets, and the non-partisan actor you refer to is either a MAGA supporter running a laptop repair store or the President's personal lawyer. No one is willing to share your partisan delusions. Not here, not anywhere else.
        lliamander 6y ago
        > Bobulinski is as random of an accuser as it gets I'm confused as to how a business partner is a "random accuser". > and the non-partisan actor you refer to is either a MAGA supporter running a laptop repair store or the President's personal lawyer. I'm talking about Bobulinski. He has his own document, emails, etc. > No one is willing to share your partisan delusions. Not here, not anywhere else. This attempted rhetorical trick of "false consensus" is dumb and needs to stop. Lot's of people, including Glen Greenwald and Matt Taibbi see enough evidence to be worth investigating.

partisanship makes people stupid.

by seppin 6y ago

partisanship makes people stupid.

Please show me the evidence of Russian influence. There has been plenty of evidence that the contents of the laptop are authentic.

free_rms 6y ago
Even if they're not authentic, it could just be a regular old lie. You know, lies? Like happen all the time in politics? Why does everything have to be a Russian conspiracy. There was a front page article on HN the other day with people taking a Russian Death Ray seriously. Taking it seriously! Come on, people.
- lliamander 6y ago
  The timing if the this all coming out is super suspicious, but the "it's the Russians!" thing just made me groan. If Democrats had simply said it was a lie I would have found that much more believable.
  - atemerev 6y ago
    But they can’t, because they know this is not a lie. It is actually quite possible that Russians have something to do with this — I say it as a Russian; they did nearly the same thing with DNC leaks in 2016. But the issue is not “who did it”, the question is whether the materials are authentic or not. DNC leaks were authentic, and that was enough for Americans to tip the election outcome in 2016. Hunter Biden materials look authentic, too.
    - deanCommie 6y ago
      I genuinely would like to understand the position of someone like you to whom this material looks authentic. How do you rationalize this series of events piling on top of each other? https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/jkjeib/how_a_fake_persona_laid_the_groundwork_for_a/gaji4e4/ https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/jkjeib/how_a_fake... What about the material looks authentic to you?
      - atemerev 6y ago
        I think that it is quite likely that the laptop was planted, the whole acquisition story is fake, and this is an orchestrated campaign optimized for maximum impact. I am not an idiot. However, the contents of the laptop (emails and pictures — at least some of them) were corroborated by multiple sources. Their timings agree with the events of Ukraine affair, which led to Trump’s impeachment proceedings. I can’t say anything about the laptop; perhaps it was planted by the Russian intelligence or Trump campaign spinners. However, its contents looks real to me.
        evgen 6y ago
        You do realize that the mechanism you use to 'wash' disinformation is to mix it in with other legitimate (hacked) data, right? If the party you are attacking denies the validity you have a few real bits of data you can point to and use to call the other party a liar. If the party you are attacking tries to explain the nuance that there is some true and some false data in there then you use that against them to try to claim it is all true or that they are admitting that your specific bits of disinformation are true, by the time people hear the full statement it is already too late. Seriously, it has been over four years since Clinton and the Podesta emails. How can anyone still be this naive?
        free_rms 6y ago
        Naive is buying into a jingoist narrative about how everything bad in our own country is because of the scary Russians and Chinese. We've got billion-dollar Presidential campaigns and 100M-dollar senate campaigns, but an office floor full of internet trolls are the ones swinging the balance of power in our country? Who's naive? Take some responsibility -- if we suck, that's on us.
        evgen 6y ago
        They are not swinging the balance of power, and at this point most of the trolls and disinformation artists are in the US working for conservative think-tanks and Republican campaigns. In case you hadn't noticed this big fat nothingburger is going nowhere. Like a lot of other new stories of late is mostly serves to separate the desperate and gullible from the rest of us.
  - achileas 6y ago
    The story literally originated in pro-Russian Ukrainian circles to fight against anti-corruption efforts there while Biden was VP: https://time.com/5902557/hunter-biden-rudy-giuliani-ukraine/ https://time.com/5902557/hunter-biden-rudy-giuliani-ukraine/
    - free_rms 6y ago
      If your kid is getting 600k/yr for a no-show job, you don't get to call your interventions "anti-corruption". Literally being involved at all is a conflict of interest.
      - seppin 6y ago
        Yes accuse Biden of corruption so Trump's corruption just doesn't bite as hard, and be maybe sneaks a few more votes. This is a cynical game and I'm sick of so many people playing it willingly.
        free_rms 6y ago
        That's not very charitable at all. Can't one be upset at all corruption? Trump's gets coverage plenty of places, wall-to-wall. Yet any mention of Biden gets dogpiled by comments like yours. For the record, I'm a Bernie voter and reluctant Biden voter.
        seppin 6y ago
        Because getting a sweetheart deal b/c your dad was VP and money laundering / theft / bribery are not two sides of the same coin. One sucks but occurs everywhere, the other is illegal.
        free_rms 6y ago
        So who's gonna hold Biden accountable once he's President? You? The NYT and WaPo? Sure doesn't sound like it.
markhahn 6y ago
No, there is evidence that there are corroboratable bits scattered throughout. That doesn't in any way corroborate the whole.
- lliamander 6y ago
  Bobulinski has stated that Joe Biden was well aware of his son's business dealings (contrary to Biden's prior public statements) and affirms that "the big guy" refers to Joe Biden when talking about payment from foreign governments. He's handed over to the FBI hundreds of emails, documents, texts, some audio recordings, etc.
  - seppin 6y ago
    Right, as said no evidence.
    - lliamander 6y ago
      If personal testimony and access to private emails and documents from a non-partisan actor is not evidence, what is?
      - seppin 6y ago
        Bobulinski is as random of an accuser as it gets, and the non-partisan actor you refer to is either a MAGA supporter running a laptop repair store or the President's personal lawyer. No one is willing to share your partisan delusions. Not here, not anywhere else.
        lliamander 6y ago
        > Bobulinski is as random of an accuser as it gets I'm confused as to how a business partner is a "random accuser". > and the non-partisan actor you refer to is either a MAGA supporter running a laptop repair store or the President's personal lawyer. I'm talking about Bobulinski. He has his own document, emails, etc. > No one is willing to share your partisan delusions. Not here, not anywhere else. This attempted rhetorical trick of "false consensus" is dumb and needs to stop. Lot's of people, including Glen Greenwald and Matt Taibbi see enough evidence to be worth investigating.