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> stop dragging books into libraries that are known to be burned down in a couple of years for sure. Spot on. We should be encouraging users to redecentralize

> stop dragging books into libraries that are known to be burned down in a couple of years for sure. Spot on. We should be encouraging users to redecentralize and use distributed open systems. Not walled gardens.

3np 6y ago
As much as I’m with you in spirit, guaranteeing long-term data availability in a distributed system that would replace Reddit is a hard one. Users are not enough, we need concerted engineering efforts.
- holler 6y ago
  this! Having a distributed architecture or business model does almost nothing in guaranteeing the sustainability of your content (and let's be honest, how often do we go back and look at something we wrote 3+ years ago?) it takes engineering effort, time, money, and reason to keep any system running for a prolonged period of time, centralized or other.
  - brokenmachine 6y ago
    Call me a hoarder, but personally I'd like to see some of those old posts just out of interest. My posts on every platform over my whole lifetime can't be more than what can fit on a flashdrive. It shouldn't be an insurmountable goal to store them, it's irritating that it's so difficult to get data out of all these fragmented systems.
nine_k 6y ago
Well, post directly to archive.org. I have seen so many large and important web sites from early 2000s to have been gone by now, to say nothing of personal blogs.
- xtracto 6y ago
  Archive can also be gone... we need a decentralized database that is "append only and that is resistant to efforts to delete it by any entity
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    Agreed, though I would also add "does not require electricity proportional to the nominal stored value" to the requirements. As of 2019, bitcoin alone is using more electricity than Switzerland[0], which is unconscionably high. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48853230 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48853230
an_opabinia 6y ago
On the other hand, this website, "karl-voit.at," isn't loading right now.
- blitblitblit 6y ago
  He should get a ZeroBlog mirror up on ZeroNet. Meanwhile we can all thank Archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20201029194008/https://karl-voit.at/2020/10/23/avoid-web-forums/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201029194008/https://karl-voit...
  - Joeboy 6y ago
    For their centralized service.
    - blitblitblit 6y ago
      Sadly yes, because no one has managed to keep the P2P CoralCache alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Content_Distribution_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Content_Distribution_Net...
saagarjha 6y ago
Walled gardens like Hacker News? ;)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
bserge 6y ago
I agree. But how would you do that? Facebook, Reddit, Imgur, Youtube, HN, SO, and others are where all the people go because it's easy and, well, all the people are there. Those are your potential readers and customers. So you go there, as well. I remember having to visit multiple forums and buying stuff directly on small websites. I needed to have credentials for all of them, but that was the hardest part, really. I liked the experience more. Reddit et all are the same, they're technically a collection of smaller forums, with the important difference being that they're controlled by a single, big company. I think it's a dangerous thing for the future of the Internet and information in general. As Google and Facebook demonstrate, one ban and you lose potentially everything digital that you "own" (don't get me started on that). Anyone would be insane to take that risk, but most people don't even realize it exists.
mrtksn 6y ago
People don't really contribute, they share content and opinions, they discuss and interact. The "contribution" is retrospective, it is only a thing that exist when you look back. The centralisation works because brings people together. Even with torrents and bitcoin, the two decentralised networks that actually work, are valuable only when there's The Pirate Bay and Binance. Without the centralisation tools, these are simply cool technologies in the lab.
rhizome 6y ago
Then prior to that you'll have to encourage users to subscribe to non-cable internet connections that have some amount of upstream bandwidth so that they can publish via machines they control.

3np 6y ago

As much as I’m with you in spirit, guaranteeing long-term data availability in a distributed system that would replace Reddit is a hard one. Users are not enough, we need concerted engineering efforts.

holler 6y ago
this! Having a distributed architecture or business model does almost nothing in guaranteeing the sustainability of your content (and let's be honest, how often do we go back and look at something we wrote 3+ years ago?) it takes engineering effort, time, money, and reason to keep any system running for a prolonged period of time, centralized or other.
- brokenmachine 6y ago
  Call me a hoarder, but personally I'd like to see some of those old posts just out of interest. My posts on every platform over my whole lifetime can't be more than what can fit on a flashdrive. It shouldn't be an insurmountable goal to store them, it's irritating that it's so difficult to get data out of all these fragmented systems.

nine_k 6y ago

Well, post directly to archive.org. I have seen so many large and important web sites from early 2000s to have been gone by now, to say nothing of personal blogs.

xtracto 6y ago
Archive can also be gone... we need a decentralized database that is "append only and that is resistant to efforts to delete it by any entity
- MereInterest 6y ago
  Agreed, though I would also add "does not require electricity proportional to the nominal stored value" to the requirements. As of 2019, bitcoin alone is using more electricity than Switzerland[0], which is unconscionably high. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48853230 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48853230

an_opabinia 6y ago

On the other hand, this website, "karl-voit.at," isn't loading right now.

blitblitblit 6y ago
He should get a ZeroBlog mirror up on ZeroNet. Meanwhile we can all thank Archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20201029194008/https://karl-voit.at/2020/10/23/avoid-web-forums/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201029194008/https://karl-voit...
- Joeboy 6y ago
  For their centralized service.
  - blitblitblit 6y ago
    Sadly yes, because no one has managed to keep the P2P CoralCache alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Content_Distribution_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Content_Distribution_Net...

saagarjha 6y ago

Walled gardens like Hacker News? ;)

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

bserge 6y ago

I agree. But how would you do that? Facebook, Reddit, Imgur, Youtube, HN, SO, and others are where all the people go because it's easy and, well, all the people are there. Those are your potential readers and customers. So you go there, as well. I remember having to visit multiple forums and buying stuff directly on small websites. I needed to have credentials for all of them, but that was the hardest part, really. I liked the experience more. Reddit et all are the same, they're technically a collection of smaller forums, with the important difference being that they're controlled by a single, big company. I think it's a dangerous thing for the future of the Internet and information in general. As Google and Facebook demonstrate, one ban and you lose potentially everything digital that you "own" (don't get me started on that). Anyone would be insane to take that risk, but most people don't even realize it exists.

mrtksn 6y ago

People don't really contribute, they share content and opinions, they discuss and interact. The "contribution" is retrospective, it is only a thing that exist when you look back. The centralisation works because brings people together. Even with torrents and bitcoin, the two decentralised networks that actually work, are valuable only when there's The Pirate Bay and Binance. Without the centralisation tools, these are simply cool technologies in the lab.

rhizome 6y ago

Then prior to that you'll have to encourage users to subscribe to non-cable internet connections that have some amount of upstream bandwidth so that they can publish via machines they control.