7 ms·

There was an almost mutiny from the NYT when they published Tom Cotton's article in their op-ed, which forced the editor to resign. They couldn't bear hearing f

There was an almost mutiny from the NYT when they published Tom Cotton's article in their op-ed, which forced the editor to resign. They couldn't bear hearing from the other side, and this is just another example of the same mentality. This is exactly what Greenwald and Tabbiti have been reporting about, the fascist left censoring or wanting to censor the news to only those opinions that they want to hear. EDIT: For the record, I'm "center-left". When I say fascist left, I mean the extreme left who believe that anyone who disagrees with them is the enemy. Unfortunately this belief is spreading more and more amongst the left, but I still believe there are a lot of moderate, even-headed left but the conversation is being dominated by the fascist left.

ghayes 6y ago
The use of terms like "the fascist left" makes it harder to appreciate the merits of statements like this. Also, the phrase is a bit oxymoronic as fascism is, specifically, a conservative ideology.
- starkd 6y ago
  Nobody really knows what fascism is. It's more of an excuse to make up the rules as you go along to obtain a certain objective. Both left and right are susceptible to it. That's why we need transparency and a free and open press.
  - CogentHedgehog 6y ago
    > Nobody really knows what fascism is. It's more of an excuse to make up the rules as you go along to obtain a certain objective. Both left and right are susceptible to it. This really only serves to muddy the waters. There are a few clear and well-recognized definitions of fascism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#By_scholars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#By_scho... There may be some differences, but they very clearly describe the same set of core traits.
    - starkd 6y ago
      My point was that its not a "left" or "right" phenomenon. The political extremes tend to resemble one another as they are willing to forego principles such as free speech in order to suppress political opponents. Everyone should be very weary of this. We can survive Trump, what we can't survive is a press that feels the need to censor content. If they get away with it, they will use it again and again.
      - CogentHedgehog 6y ago
        That's not true either though. Fascism is by definition a right-wing form of authoritarianism, because of how it uses class divides to build its political power. The corresponding left-wing authoritarianism would be "leftist populism", "Stalinism", or some other term. What you're describing is called Horseshoe Theory, and it's not well-supported by evidence. Right-wing and left-wing populism have a few things in common (authoritarianism primarily), but have much larger differences than similarities. I will point out that attacks on a free press ARE a clear sign of authoritarian regimes. I would encourage you to take a look at the history of the German word "Lügenpresse" (literally "lying press"). Especially take note if you see similar things being said about the modern media -- and which groups are saying it.
        knaq 6y ago
        You say "by definition a right-wing form [...] it uses class divides to build its political power", but how does that match the right? The very first thing I associate with obtaining power via class divides is Karl Marx. There's also Mao, Lenin, Pol Pot, and anybody in modern USA politics who complains about the "1%ers" or "income inequality". I'm really really not seeing how that matches up as you claim it does. I think you need to accept the uncomfortable and obvious conclusion here.
        CogentHedgehog 6y ago
        I phrased that poorly. Fascism uses economic and class features that largely do not exist in a far-left society, such as a sizeable middle class and corporate power. From Umberto Eco's definition of fascism: "'Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class', fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups." From Gentile's definition: "corporative organization of the economy that suppresses trade union liberty, broadens the sphere of state intervention, and seeks to achieve, by principles of technocracy and solidarity, the collaboration of the 'productive sectors' under control of the regime, to achieve its goals of power, yet preserving private property and class divisions;" I understand that it is appealing to try to dilute the meaning of "fascism" by applying it overly broadly until it loses its meaing. Whataboutism is also convenient way for the Right to distance themselves from the evils committed by the right-wing Nazis and other far-right fascist groups. The better way for the Right to distance itself is by supporting moderate democratic norms rather than giving in to violent populist impulses. Power is one heck of a drug though.
  - mizzack 6y ago
    Fascism wasn't a strictly conservative ideology until the fascist left redefined it to mean that. /s /s/s?
  - spaetzleesser 6y ago
    “Fascism “ means basically “really bad” the same way “Hitler” means “really bad”. I really hate it that most groups have their favorite bad words, be it “racist”, “socialist”, “fascist” or “neocon” without having even a basic understanding of their meaning or history. They all just mean “so bad that it can’t be even discussed or questioned”.
- __blockcipher__ 6y ago
  Perhaps the term "the authoritarian left" or "the totalitarian left" would fit a bit better. I think in context their point is very clear though.
  - abecedarius 6y ago
    For those on the left who're against free speech and such, I've started using "antiliberal left". I'm not even sure they'd object to the term. (Consider this a try at finding out.)
- CogentHedgehog 6y ago
  One of Gentile's elements defining fascism is "a police apparatus that prevents, controls, and represses dissidence and opposition, including through the use of organized terror." Sending in the military against protesters would be literally a textbook example. Cotton's OpEd was a prominent member of government advocating for fascist actions. The irony here is palpable.
  - ping_pong 6y ago
    He specifically said rioters, not protesters. Read the actual op-ed.
    - CogentHedgehog 6y ago
      I did, when it came out. Labeling them as rioters did not make the piece any less concerning. Read up on the Reichstag fire and how it was used to justify suspension of civil rights. The parallels are striking.
      - ping_pong 6y ago
        You didn't read it properly, because he never said protesters. Changing "rioters" to "protesters" completely changes the meaning of what Cotton said. I don't agree with him, but I am vehemently against people twisting others' words to spread lies and misinformation. He said "rioters". Don't lie and say he said "protesters" because then you are implying he is trying to quash free speech with the military. In this case, you are the one in the wrong. Spreading misinformation purposefully to trick people into agreeing with you is what is destroying this country right now and you are doing this.
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        In context, many had, and continue to, misconstrue protests as riots. As such, a call to send in the military against rioters cannot be differentiated from a call to send in the military against protestors, unless you can get cotton and the protestors to agree on what the differences between protest and riot are.
- ping_pong 6y ago
  Every single action taken by the fascist left mimic traditional fascism. They have taken the tactics from Mussolini and adapted well for their own purposes. Suppression of different ideas, censorship, etc. The only difference is that it's flown under the banner of the left, but their tactics are very much the same.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Every single action taken by the fascist left mimic traditional fascism. They have taken the tactics from Mussolini and adapted well for their own purposes. There's no such as even fascist left, even in the kind of disputable way in which Leninist and non-Leninist Marxists will argue over whether Leninism is a genuinely Marxist, Communist, or leftist movement, or a form of right-wing state capitalism. Fascism is an ideology, not a set of tactics. Yes, right and left wing groups (both moderate and extreme) often learn tactics from each other. No, that doesn't make the ideologies the same.
    - ping_pong 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism
      - monocasa 6y ago
        That's a reference to National Bolsheviks, which haven't existed since the night of long knives. "There should be a communist utopia...for aryans as they crush all other races under their boot" is not a movement with really any members anymore.
        ping_pong 6y ago
        Try reading the links for once. It has nothing to do with National Bolsheviks. The links talk about more modern forms of left-wing fascism.
  - spaetzleesser 6y ago
rat87 6y ago
Not publishing an editorial calling for an authoritarian crackdown is facism now?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ghayes 6y ago

The use of terms like "the fascist left" makes it harder to appreciate the merits of statements like this. Also, the phrase is a bit oxymoronic as fascism is, specifically, a conservative ideology.

starkd 6y ago
Nobody really knows what fascism is. It's more of an excuse to make up the rules as you go along to obtain a certain objective. Both left and right are susceptible to it. That's why we need transparency and a free and open press.
- CogentHedgehog 6y ago
  > Nobody really knows what fascism is. It's more of an excuse to make up the rules as you go along to obtain a certain objective. Both left and right are susceptible to it. This really only serves to muddy the waters. There are a few clear and well-recognized definitions of fascism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#By_scholars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#By_scho... There may be some differences, but they very clearly describe the same set of core traits.
  - starkd 6y ago
    My point was that its not a "left" or "right" phenomenon. The political extremes tend to resemble one another as they are willing to forego principles such as free speech in order to suppress political opponents. Everyone should be very weary of this. We can survive Trump, what we can't survive is a press that feels the need to censor content. If they get away with it, they will use it again and again.
    - CogentHedgehog 6y ago
      That's not true either though. Fascism is by definition a right-wing form of authoritarianism, because of how it uses class divides to build its political power. The corresponding left-wing authoritarianism would be "leftist populism", "Stalinism", or some other term. What you're describing is called Horseshoe Theory, and it's not well-supported by evidence. Right-wing and left-wing populism have a few things in common (authoritarianism primarily), but have much larger differences than similarities. I will point out that attacks on a free press ARE a clear sign of authoritarian regimes. I would encourage you to take a look at the history of the German word "Lügenpresse" (literally "lying press"). Especially take note if you see similar things being said about the modern media -- and which groups are saying it.
      - knaq 6y ago
        You say "by definition a right-wing form [...] it uses class divides to build its political power", but how does that match the right? The very first thing I associate with obtaining power via class divides is Karl Marx. There's also Mao, Lenin, Pol Pot, and anybody in modern USA politics who complains about the "1%ers" or "income inequality". I'm really really not seeing how that matches up as you claim it does. I think you need to accept the uncomfortable and obvious conclusion here.
        CogentHedgehog 6y ago
        I phrased that poorly. Fascism uses economic and class features that largely do not exist in a far-left society, such as a sizeable middle class and corporate power. From Umberto Eco's definition of fascism: "'Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class', fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups." From Gentile's definition: "corporative organization of the economy that suppresses trade union liberty, broadens the sphere of state intervention, and seeks to achieve, by principles of technocracy and solidarity, the collaboration of the 'productive sectors' under control of the regime, to achieve its goals of power, yet preserving private property and class divisions;" I understand that it is appealing to try to dilute the meaning of "fascism" by applying it overly broadly until it loses its meaing. Whataboutism is also convenient way for the Right to distance themselves from the evils committed by the right-wing Nazis and other far-right fascist groups. The better way for the Right to distance itself is by supporting moderate democratic norms rather than giving in to violent populist impulses. Power is one heck of a drug though.
- mizzack 6y ago
  Fascism wasn't a strictly conservative ideology until the fascist left redefined it to mean that. /s /s/s?
- spaetzleesser 6y ago
  “Fascism “ means basically “really bad” the same way “Hitler” means “really bad”. I really hate it that most groups have their favorite bad words, be it “racist”, “socialist”, “fascist” or “neocon” without having even a basic understanding of their meaning or history. They all just mean “so bad that it can’t be even discussed or questioned”.
__blockcipher__ 6y ago
Perhaps the term "the authoritarian left" or "the totalitarian left" would fit a bit better. I think in context their point is very clear though.
- abecedarius 6y ago
  For those on the left who're against free speech and such, I've started using "antiliberal left". I'm not even sure they'd object to the term. (Consider this a try at finding out.)
CogentHedgehog 6y ago
One of Gentile's elements defining fascism is "a police apparatus that prevents, controls, and represses dissidence and opposition, including through the use of organized terror." Sending in the military against protesters would be literally a textbook example. Cotton's OpEd was a prominent member of government advocating for fascist actions. The irony here is palpable.
- ping_pong 6y ago
  He specifically said rioters, not protesters. Read the actual op-ed.
  - CogentHedgehog 6y ago
    I did, when it came out. Labeling them as rioters did not make the piece any less concerning. Read up on the Reichstag fire and how it was used to justify suspension of civil rights. The parallels are striking.
    - ping_pong 6y ago
      You didn't read it properly, because he never said protesters. Changing "rioters" to "protesters" completely changes the meaning of what Cotton said. I don't agree with him, but I am vehemently against people twisting others' words to spread lies and misinformation. He said "rioters". Don't lie and say he said "protesters" because then you are implying he is trying to quash free speech with the military. In this case, you are the one in the wrong. Spreading misinformation purposefully to trick people into agreeing with you is what is destroying this country right now and you are doing this.
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        In context, many had, and continue to, misconstrue protests as riots. As such, a call to send in the military against rioters cannot be differentiated from a call to send in the military against protestors, unless you can get cotton and the protestors to agree on what the differences between protest and riot are.
ping_pong 6y ago
Every single action taken by the fascist left mimic traditional fascism. They have taken the tactics from Mussolini and adapted well for their own purposes. Suppression of different ideas, censorship, etc. The only difference is that it's flown under the banner of the left, but their tactics are very much the same.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Every single action taken by the fascist left mimic traditional fascism. They have taken the tactics from Mussolini and adapted well for their own purposes. There's no such as even fascist left, even in the kind of disputable way in which Leninist and non-Leninist Marxists will argue over whether Leninism is a genuinely Marxist, Communist, or leftist movement, or a form of right-wing state capitalism. Fascism is an ideology, not a set of tactics. Yes, right and left wing groups (both moderate and extreme) often learn tactics from each other. No, that doesn't make the ideologies the same.
  - ping_pong 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism
    - monocasa 6y ago
      That's a reference to National Bolsheviks, which haven't existed since the night of long knives. "There should be a communist utopia...for aryans as they crush all other races under their boot" is not a movement with really any members anymore.
      - ping_pong 6y ago
        Try reading the links for once. It has nothing to do with National Bolsheviks. The links talk about more modern forms of left-wing fascism.
- spaetzleesser 6y ago

rat87 6y ago

Not publishing an editorial calling for an authoritarian crackdown is facism now?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]