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Is it particularly surprising? I've never looked into any research on the subject, but it would seem fairly common sense to me that in a huge number of tests, r

by corin_ 16y ago

Is it particularly surprising? I've never looked into any research on the subject, but it would seem fairly common sense to me that in a huge number of tests, ranging from IQ tests to History exams at school, people who care will try harder and therefore do better.

rauljara 16y ago
Many psychological findings are remarkably un-surprising in retrospect. And I agree with you, this seems stupidly obvious once I know the answer. But I took an undergraduate course basically dedicated to the history of IQ testing and this gem never came up. A lot of things seem obvious if you know the answer. But I guarantee you, this never occurred to many, many people who have devoted their lives to studying IQ. Also, a lot of things that seem fairly common sense turn out to be wrong when you subject them to empirical testing, so be careful about the applying the 'common sense' filter.
- wccrawford 16y ago
  Many people think that IQ tests will measure accurately even if the participant doesn't try hard, kind of like how psych tests work. It's not true, though. The questions are -hard- and if you don't try, you won't get the right answer and you'll do worse. So while it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's taken one, not everyone understands how the test works.
- a1k0n 16y ago
  > A lot of things seem obvious if you know the answer. [...] Also, a lot of things that seem fairly common sense turn out to be wrong when you subject them to empirical testing, so be careful about the applying the 'common sense' filter. A Yahoo researcher wrote a book about this very thing: http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Obvious-Once-Know-Answer/dp/0385531680 http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Obvious-Once-Know-Answer/dp...
kingkilr 16y ago
Surprising today, or 100 years ago when people thought IQ tests measured some immutable property of the human brain :) today of course we know it's possible to change your IQ in all sorts of ways.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Apart from underfeeding children or hitting people on the head, I'm not aware of any ways to significantly change IQ. Could you elaborate?
  - thesz 16y ago
    Spatial navigation and logical reasoning improved by higher levels of testosterone, for example.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      I don't understand - injecting a person with testosterone increases their logical reasoning ability? I hate to be that guy, but [citation needed].
      - thesz 16y ago
        http://books.google.com/books?id=IHGdmrKlVl0C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=testosterone++%22logical+reasoning%22&source=bl&ots=Gv8nl0Iba6&sig=n-3q-R7Eso-Nv7XxaDQIlgHWmvY&hl=en&ei=SJO5TbPjOMrZsga24sDrAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=testosterone%20%20%22logical%20reasoning%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=IHGdmrKlVl0C&pg=PA57&#3... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3067252 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3067252 This relates to women, but this applicable to mens too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypogonadism#In_men http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypogonadism#In_men Difficulty concentrating Memory Loss-difficulty in choosing words in language
  - tomlin 16y ago
    How about a caffeinated coffee? Or a poor sleep?
ajscherer 16y ago
The first part of their finding, that motivated people or those with an incentive will do better on IQ tests, does seem common sense. The second part of their finding is more interesting to me, although I'm still trying to fully understand it. I think they are suggesting that innate heritable intelligence isn't as predictive of life outcomes as previously thought because part of what was being measured was motivation to do well on IQ tests. In other words, two people could be born with the same innate intelligence, but one of the two could be more motivated and do better in both IQ tests and life outcomes. Previously people would've attributed the difference in life outcomes to a difference in innate intelligence. It still seems like IQ would be an interesting number to look at, but it isn't quite measuring what people believed it was measuring.
- corin_ 16y ago
  Previously people would've attributed the difference in life outcomes to a difference in innate intelligence What? I mean, sure there are some people who think that, but surely clever people realise it's not the case? Even as a ~14 year old at school I could tell just from my class mates that some hadn't been born amazingly bright but worked their asses off and would end up doing better than the lazy people who found stuff easy instead.
fanboy123 16y ago
I don't have academic access to the actual article. A commonsensical result may not be surprising but I want to know how they did their metastudy. Anyone care to elaborate?
scott_s 16y ago
http://lesswrong.com/lw/im/hindsight_devalues_science/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/im/hindsight_devalues_science/

by corin_ 16y ago

rauljara 16y ago

Many psychological findings are remarkably un-surprising in retrospect. And I agree with you, this seems stupidly obvious once I know the answer. But I took an undergraduate course basically dedicated to the history of IQ testing and this gem never came up. A lot of things seem obvious if you know the answer. But I guarantee you, this never occurred to many, many people who have devoted their lives to studying IQ. Also, a lot of things that seem fairly common sense turn out to be wrong when you subject them to empirical testing, so be careful about the applying the 'common sense' filter.

wccrawford 16y ago
Many people think that IQ tests will measure accurately even if the participant doesn't try hard, kind of like how psych tests work. It's not true, though. The questions are -hard- and if you don't try, you won't get the right answer and you'll do worse. So while it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's taken one, not everyone understands how the test works.
a1k0n 16y ago
> A lot of things seem obvious if you know the answer. [...] Also, a lot of things that seem fairly common sense turn out to be wrong when you subject them to empirical testing, so be careful about the applying the 'common sense' filter. A Yahoo researcher wrote a book about this very thing: http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Obvious-Once-Know-Answer/dp/0385531680 http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Obvious-Once-Know-Answer/dp...

kingkilr 16y ago

Surprising today, or 100 years ago when people thought IQ tests measured some immutable property of the human brain :) today of course we know it's possible to change your IQ in all sorts of ways.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Apart from underfeeding children or hitting people on the head, I'm not aware of any ways to significantly change IQ. Could you elaborate?
- thesz 16y ago
  Spatial navigation and logical reasoning improved by higher levels of testosterone, for example.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    I don't understand - injecting a person with testosterone increases their logical reasoning ability? I hate to be that guy, but [citation needed].
    - thesz 16y ago
      http://books.google.com/books?id=IHGdmrKlVl0C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=testosterone++%22logical+reasoning%22&source=bl&ots=Gv8nl0Iba6&sig=n-3q-R7Eso-Nv7XxaDQIlgHWmvY&hl=en&ei=SJO5TbPjOMrZsga24sDrAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=testosterone%20%20%22logical%20reasoning%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=IHGdmrKlVl0C&pg=PA57&#3... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3067252 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3067252 This relates to women, but this applicable to mens too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypogonadism#In_men http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypogonadism#In_men Difficulty concentrating Memory Loss-difficulty in choosing words in language
- tomlin 16y ago
  How about a caffeinated coffee? Or a poor sleep?

ajscherer 16y ago

The first part of their finding, that motivated people or those with an incentive will do better on IQ tests, does seem common sense. The second part of their finding is more interesting to me, although I'm still trying to fully understand it. I think they are suggesting that innate heritable intelligence isn't as predictive of life outcomes as previously thought because part of what was being measured was motivation to do well on IQ tests. In other words, two people could be born with the same innate intelligence, but one of the two could be more motivated and do better in both IQ tests and life outcomes. Previously people would've attributed the difference in life outcomes to a difference in innate intelligence. It still seems like IQ would be an interesting number to look at, but it isn't quite measuring what people believed it was measuring.

corin_ 16y ago
Previously people would've attributed the difference in life outcomes to a difference in innate intelligence What? I mean, sure there are some people who think that, but surely clever people realise it's not the case? Even as a ~14 year old at school I could tell just from my class mates that some hadn't been born amazingly bright but worked their asses off and would end up doing better than the lazy people who found stuff easy instead.

fanboy123 16y ago

I don't have academic access to the actual article. A commonsensical result may not be surprising but I want to know how they did their metastudy. Anyone care to elaborate?

scott_s 16y ago

http://lesswrong.com/lw/im/hindsight_devalues_science/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/im/hindsight_devalues_science/