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>> I studies CS back in the 80s and back then every student I knew was genuinely interested in the subject and motivated to learn. In my last job at a bank I re

>> I studies CS back in the 80s and back then every student I knew was genuinely interested in the subject and motivated to learn. In my last job at a bank I regularly interviewed recent CS graduates and candidates able to demonstrate a genuine passion for the subject were few and far between. You are comparing college students from the 1980s to those from 20xx. I'll tell you what is on the mind of the new students: how the heck do I pay my student loans and save up for a $2M starter home It is easy to have passion when you barely have student loans and can buy a home with a year or two of earnings. In case you point out that salaries were also lower back then, i'll give you that, but the ratio of salary/debt and salary/homeprice was far more reasonable back then than now. EDIT: This is a US-centric view, not necessarily a global view. Further, it is a SF/SV/NYC centric view since that is where a majority of tech+banking jobs are.

silvestrov 6y ago
> how the heck do I pay my student loans and save up for a $2M starter home Not valid for Scandinavia. In Denmark we get paid approx $1000 per month (like a wage) for studying and we pay $0 for attending university. You only have to pay for your own computer. Some students have a part time job, some get extra money from parents. So many students get by with zero loans.
- TuringNYC 6y ago
  My apologies. I was thinking of this comment with too much of a US-centric view.
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  And what proportion of 18/19 year olds goto university?
  - Gwypaas 6y ago
    It's a different culture than the US. Not at all the same pressure to immediately go to university, many people get jobs and travel while feeling out what field they really want to enter. This is of course dependent on the current jobs market. Personally I had three years. Then university has nothing of the general courses and only specialized following your program. You have some statistics in page 7 here, for Sweden though. It is influenced by people taking single courses and masters programs instead of the first enrollment so keep that in mind. https://www.uhr.se/globalassets/_uhr.se/publikationer/2020/snabbrapport-ht-2020-sista-anmalningsdag-200423.pdf https://www.uhr.se/globalassets/_uhr.se/publikationer/2020/s...
Kalium 6y ago
How many software engineers do you know who are legitimately terrified of their student loan debts for a Bachelor's in CS? I've met people with grad degrees in less remunerative fields who absolutely have exactly the worries you imagine. But a fresh grad with a CS degree and a promising career? A 250k salary isn't even a stretch for them to imagine. Add a partner with a similar income and both the student loans and that $2M starter home seem plenty achievable. Especially if they look at home prices in Oakland or Hayward where home prices are still under $1M, rather than the more exclusive parts of San Francisco (read: all of it).
- TuringNYC 6y ago
  Firstly, i graduated in 2001, so i've been through two down-cycles. Of course there are no worries now but you just need to look back and realize that $250k salaries can disappear, sometimes permanently. I remember how awesome it was in 2000, 2001, and then in 2002 and 2003 my friends were suddenly leaving CS to become mortgage brokers. I was blase about my liabilities in 2000, 2001. Not the case in 2002 or 2003. Blase again in 2006 and 2007. Terrified in 2009 (not about student loans but just liabilities in general - COBRA, property taxes, supporting family, etc.) A large number of $250k+ salaries, on Wall St, for example permanently disappeared with the move to open source, shared servicing, etc. Former bosses are "retired" or "consultants" or insurance brokers. Finally, sure, having a spouse who also earns $250k is great, but does everyone have that? Should CS grads only marry other CS grads? What if you wall in love with someone who does HR (which is my case)? Also note, that stretching for a $2M home with two $250k tech salaries is pretty risky 0. What happens when you turn 35 or 40 and now face age discrimination? 1. Both your salaries are highly industry correlated 2. Both your salaries are regionally correlated 3. If either of you lose a job, you're screwed with a mega-loan. 4. What happens when kids come and you cant work (as easily, or at all?)
  - Kalium 6y ago
    I remember 2002 and 2003. And 2008. You're right. These are real worries for real people in the real world. Let's ground this in more realistic numbers: you can reasonably buy a $500k residential property in the SF Bay on a single $140k salary. That's a salary that's very achievable for a senior engineer - which is to say five years of experience, which many will hit by 30. It's one that you can keep getting when you hit 35 or 40 if you don't move into management or technical leadership so long as you don't insist on working solely for startups founded recently by 20-somethings. It's a pay packet that will enable you to rid yourself of student loans in relatively short order, should you choose to do so. The nice thing about the "the tech industry" is that one name covers a shockingly diverse swath. I've seen personal finance, business finance, high finance, business services, medicine, consumer electronics, and more all under the name of "tech". They are not nearly are industry-correlated as calling it all "tech industry" might lead someone to think. Often they have little in common with one another except using a bit of Python or Ruby. With that in mind, and that any property appreciates in value over enough time (or at least is exceptionally unlikely to lose significant value in the SF Bay), we've got a scenario where of 0-4 concerns, only #2 is really a big one in this new world of remote work. 0 and 1 aren't big issues, as mentioned previously. 3 isn't a huge deal - you're sitting on an asset in which you have a non-trivial chunk of ownership that you can use. 4 is a universal issue that will arise in literally any scenario where you don't have 1%-grade resources, and no change of location (or income) will fix that. Your concerns are wise, and clear-headed. I applaud your foresight and caution! I think it just might be possible that grounding numbers in reality might change the calculations slightly.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
krisroadruck 6y ago
$2M is not a starter home. The national median home price is $230K. It's only that high because 4-5 states are dragging it up. Keep in mind that is the median. There are homes that can be had for less. Nice homes. Buying a house in one of the most expensive markets in the entire nation (SF, NYC) as your first home is a choice, and perhaps not a particularly wise one. Where I live in, in Charlotte, NC a $1-2 million home budget would buy you a literal castle. Here is one on zillow not far from me for $1.2M it's a 6 bed, 7 bath, 7500+ Sq ft castle on an acre and surrounded by forest while still being only a 20 minute drive to the heart of the city. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/14001-Grand-Palisades-Pkwy-Charlotte-NC-28278/2078734919_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/14001-Grand-Palisades-Pkw... For a much more reasonable $250K you can easily get a nice 2-3K sq ft 3-4 bedroom home with a quarter acre lot, nice fixtures and a 2 bay garage. This is in the 15th largest city in the US mind you. Better deals can be had elsewhere.
- TuringNYC 6y ago
  I think some of the context is lost here. The GP was talking about banking jobs with CS applicants not really passionate about CS. The majority of banking jobs are in NYC, so there really isn't really a huge choice. If you're applying for a CS job (not IT) in banking, almost the entire job market is in NYC. My argument was that of course students are not passionate, they are worried about student loans, homes, rents. (Fun exercise go to the same Zillow link and try to find homes in NYC max $250k. Then, on what you find, look at the transportation options are into NYC.) I'm glad you brought up NC because it has a decent sized banking sector but also offers great QoL. I actually left NYC and took a super-interesting job a bit north of you in Virginia. Homes are affordable, QoL is great. There is a catch though: there arent all that many other interesting jobs in tech (as there were in NY/SF). The startup scene is tiny. There are few FAANG jobs here though Amazon is supposed to come soon. There are some awesome CS research-type jobs, in govnt labs. There are lots of interesting consulting jobs to be fair, as well as FAANG SE jobs. There are lots of interesting data-type jobs in Intelligence. There are also tens of thousands of totally dead-end tech jobs where you do nothing all day at government offices. A friend told me he's been waiting two months to get approval to install a pip library on a government machine. Another friend works on ancient systems. Good QoL - absolutely. Good home prices - absolutely. Jobs i'd be passionate about - some, hopefully more coming with remote. Am I obsessively passionate about the work here? No, i'm mostly enjoying the outdoors.
simonh 6y ago
F-me, $2m for a starter home. Where on Earth do you live, and what sort of house do you live in?
- Kalium 6y ago
  I don't think that's a real number for anywhere, unless you insist on never leaving the Upper East Side.

silvestrov 6y ago

> how the heck do I pay my student loans and save up for a $2M starter home Not valid for Scandinavia. In Denmark we get paid approx $1000 per month (like a wage) for studying and we pay $0 for attending university. You only have to pay for your own computer. Some students have a part time job, some get extra money from parents. So many students get by with zero loans.

TuringNYC 6y ago
My apologies. I was thinking of this comment with too much of a US-centric view.
C1sc0cat 6y ago
And what proportion of 18/19 year olds goto university?
- Gwypaas 6y ago
  It's a different culture than the US. Not at all the same pressure to immediately go to university, many people get jobs and travel while feeling out what field they really want to enter. This is of course dependent on the current jobs market. Personally I had three years. Then university has nothing of the general courses and only specialized following your program. You have some statistics in page 7 here, for Sweden though. It is influenced by people taking single courses and masters programs instead of the first enrollment so keep that in mind. https://www.uhr.se/globalassets/_uhr.se/publikationer/2020/snabbrapport-ht-2020-sista-anmalningsdag-200423.pdf https://www.uhr.se/globalassets/_uhr.se/publikationer/2020/s...

Kalium 6y ago

How many software engineers do you know who are legitimately terrified of their student loan debts for a Bachelor's in CS? I've met people with grad degrees in less remunerative fields who absolutely have exactly the worries you imagine. But a fresh grad with a CS degree and a promising career? A 250k salary isn't even a stretch for them to imagine. Add a partner with a similar income and both the student loans and that $2M starter home seem plenty achievable. Especially if they look at home prices in Oakland or Hayward where home prices are still under $1M, rather than the more exclusive parts of San Francisco (read: all of it).

TuringNYC 6y ago
Firstly, i graduated in 2001, so i've been through two down-cycles. Of course there are no worries now but you just need to look back and realize that $250k salaries can disappear, sometimes permanently. I remember how awesome it was in 2000, 2001, and then in 2002 and 2003 my friends were suddenly leaving CS to become mortgage brokers. I was blase about my liabilities in 2000, 2001. Not the case in 2002 or 2003. Blase again in 2006 and 2007. Terrified in 2009 (not about student loans but just liabilities in general - COBRA, property taxes, supporting family, etc.) A large number of $250k+ salaries, on Wall St, for example permanently disappeared with the move to open source, shared servicing, etc. Former bosses are "retired" or "consultants" or insurance brokers. Finally, sure, having a spouse who also earns $250k is great, but does everyone have that? Should CS grads only marry other CS grads? What if you wall in love with someone who does HR (which is my case)? Also note, that stretching for a $2M home with two $250k tech salaries is pretty risky 0. What happens when you turn 35 or 40 and now face age discrimination? 1. Both your salaries are highly industry correlated 2. Both your salaries are regionally correlated 3. If either of you lose a job, you're screwed with a mega-loan. 4. What happens when kids come and you cant work (as easily, or at all?)
- Kalium 6y ago
  I remember 2002 and 2003. And 2008. You're right. These are real worries for real people in the real world. Let's ground this in more realistic numbers: you can reasonably buy a $500k residential property in the SF Bay on a single $140k salary. That's a salary that's very achievable for a senior engineer - which is to say five years of experience, which many will hit by 30. It's one that you can keep getting when you hit 35 or 40 if you don't move into management or technical leadership so long as you don't insist on working solely for startups founded recently by 20-somethings. It's a pay packet that will enable you to rid yourself of student loans in relatively short order, should you choose to do so. The nice thing about the "the tech industry" is that one name covers a shockingly diverse swath. I've seen personal finance, business finance, high finance, business services, medicine, consumer electronics, and more all under the name of "tech". They are not nearly are industry-correlated as calling it all "tech industry" might lead someone to think. Often they have little in common with one another except using a bit of Python or Ruby. With that in mind, and that any property appreciates in value over enough time (or at least is exceptionally unlikely to lose significant value in the SF Bay), we've got a scenario where of 0-4 concerns, only #2 is really a big one in this new world of remote work. 0 and 1 aren't big issues, as mentioned previously. 3 isn't a huge deal - you're sitting on an asset in which you have a non-trivial chunk of ownership that you can use. 4 is a universal issue that will arise in literally any scenario where you don't have 1%-grade resources, and no change of location (or income) will fix that. Your concerns are wise, and clear-headed. I applaud your foresight and caution! I think it just might be possible that grounding numbers in reality might change the calculations slightly.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

krisroadruck 6y ago

$2M is not a starter home. The national median home price is $230K. It's only that high because 4-5 states are dragging it up. Keep in mind that is the median. There are homes that can be had for less. Nice homes. Buying a house in one of the most expensive markets in the entire nation (SF, NYC) as your first home is a choice, and perhaps not a particularly wise one. Where I live in, in Charlotte, NC a $1-2 million home budget would buy you a literal castle. Here is one on zillow not far from me for $1.2M it's a 6 bed, 7 bath, 7500+ Sq ft castle on an acre and surrounded by forest while still being only a 20 minute drive to the heart of the city. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/14001-Grand-Palisades-Pkwy-Charlotte-NC-28278/2078734919_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/14001-Grand-Palisades-Pkw... For a much more reasonable $250K you can easily get a nice 2-3K sq ft 3-4 bedroom home with a quarter acre lot, nice fixtures and a 2 bay garage. This is in the 15th largest city in the US mind you. Better deals can be had elsewhere.

TuringNYC 6y ago
I think some of the context is lost here. The GP was talking about banking jobs with CS applicants not really passionate about CS. The majority of banking jobs are in NYC, so there really isn't really a huge choice. If you're applying for a CS job (not IT) in banking, almost the entire job market is in NYC. My argument was that of course students are not passionate, they are worried about student loans, homes, rents. (Fun exercise go to the same Zillow link and try to find homes in NYC max $250k. Then, on what you find, look at the transportation options are into NYC.) I'm glad you brought up NC because it has a decent sized banking sector but also offers great QoL. I actually left NYC and took a super-interesting job a bit north of you in Virginia. Homes are affordable, QoL is great. There is a catch though: there arent all that many other interesting jobs in tech (as there were in NY/SF). The startup scene is tiny. There are few FAANG jobs here though Amazon is supposed to come soon. There are some awesome CS research-type jobs, in govnt labs. There are lots of interesting consulting jobs to be fair, as well as FAANG SE jobs. There are lots of interesting data-type jobs in Intelligence. There are also tens of thousands of totally dead-end tech jobs where you do nothing all day at government offices. A friend told me he's been waiting two months to get approval to install a pip library on a government machine. Another friend works on ancient systems. Good QoL - absolutely. Good home prices - absolutely. Jobs i'd be passionate about - some, hopefully more coming with remote. Am I obsessively passionate about the work here? No, i'm mostly enjoying the outdoors.

simonh 6y ago

F-me, $2m for a starter home. Where on Earth do you live, and what sort of house do you live in?

Kalium 6y ago
I don't think that's a real number for anywhere, unless you insist on never leaving the Upper East Side.