7 ms·

Unless I'm missing something, the substantive difference hereis that GrubHub is still ordering from the restaurant that the customer is ordering from. Your com

by acoard 6y ago

Unless I'm missing something, the substantive difference hereis that GrubHub is still ordering from the restaurant that the customer is ordering from. Your comparison of pretending to offer GrubHubHelp but then going to competitors is like if I ordered McDonalds, and you brought me pasta. I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with what GrubHub is doing, but I could see them needing to clearly note the relationship. There are lots of personal shopping/delivery services which phone in orders and go pick something up without having a pre-existing relationship with the restaurant.

tartoran 6y ago
> I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with what GrubHub is doing, but I could see them needing to clearly note the relationship. There are lots of personal shopping/delivery services which phone in orders and go pick something up without having a pre-existing relationship with the restaurant. The problem is that Grubhub is not asking permission to list the business on their site and it borders on abusive behavior. The said business may have an ordering system already or a phone number to order because they simply don't to share a hefty cut with Grubhub. Why they don't simply ask for permission? Because some restaurants wouldn't give it and Grubhub forces their hand. I think this is what this lawsuit is about.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > The problem is that Grubhub is not asking permission But nothing says they have to as far as I know? Do you have to ask permission from an author before you resell a book you own? > because they simply don't to share a hefty cut with Grubhub They don't have to share a cut in this case. The restaurant still gets the full retail price that they set. Grubhub marks up on top of that or takes it as a loss as I understand. > Why they don't simply ask for permission? They don't want to. Do they need any more reason than that?
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Yes they have to ask for permission to present themselves as an agent of the company, which they do when they present their own phone number as the restaurant phone number. So I imagine the lawsuit will have many legs to stand on. This is business, which has many rules. Its not just 'do whatever you like as long as it makes money'.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      Are they claiming to be the restaurant? Or just saying you can phone this number and get the advertised product, which is true?
      - nobody9999 6y ago
        >Are they claiming to be the restaurant? Or just saying you can phone this number and get the advertised product, which is true? Here's an example. The site linked (menupages.com) is owned by Grubhub/Seamless. The telephone number is not the actual phone number of the restaurant, and attempting to order through this site gives no hint that you're using Grubhub/Seamless. https://menupages.com/tropical-sensation/953-amsterdam-st-new-york https://menupages.com/tropical-sensation/953-amsterdam-st-ne... While search engines seem to have backed off putting GrubHub's fake websites near the top of searches, this has been a widespread practice by them for a long time[0]: "The company has registered a lot of fake websites. GrubHub has registered either a bit more than 23,000 websites, according to the New Food Economy, or 34,000 over the last nine years, per the New York Post’s report. The last domain GrubHub registered was in May, when the Post detailed the company’s practice of creating phone numbers for restaurants in order to drive up its own sales." [0] https://www.grubstreet.com/2019/07/everything-you-need-to-know-about-grubhubs-fake-websites.html https://www.grubstreet.com/2019/07/everything-you-need-to-kn...
    - shermheadryder 6y ago
      > Yes they have to ask for permission to present themselves as an agent of the company That's not necessarily true (yet), that's literally what this legal case is about.
  - pc86 6y ago
    In your book example, I am buying a book from you. A better example would be you buy search ads for the author's name, create a website with a button "Contact the author" which goes to you, and then you sell me the book.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      And I’m buying the food from GrubHub who buy the food from the restaurant. Like if I buy a book from a bookshop who buy it from the publisher.
      - throw_m239339 6y ago
        > A Like if I buy a book from a bookshop who buy it from the publisher. No it is not the same, because there is no business agreement between Grubhub and the restaurant here unwilling and unaware restaurants aren't "kitchens" working for Grubhub. Grubhub wouldn't dare pulling that stunt with McDonalds or BurgerKing and list their products, use their corporate identity and sandwich pictures without an agreement or striking a deal before hand. They are preying on smaller restaurants because they know it's harder for the little guy to fight back, it's the very definition of predatory behaviour. You just don't see anything wrong with that.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        > because there is no business agreement between Grubhub and the restaurant You don’t need an agreement to resell product that you have purchased. Or is everyone on HN now suddenly in favour of scrapping the first sale doctrine and allowing manufacturers to control if you can resell your property? Madness. If GrubHub are able to buy the product they should be able to resell it.
        throw_m239339 6y ago
        > You don’t need an agreement to resell product that you have purchased. You are ignoring 80% of my argumentations to make your sophistic point, and then complaining "about everyone on HN", you're just being disingenuous. We're talking about prepared food here (and potentially fraud), not books. And you talk to me about "first sale doctrine" in relation to prepared food claiming everybody here is ignorant?
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  Why should they need to ask for permission? Businesses operate in the public sphere; they have physical addresses and show up in business listings, so their locations and info aren't private. The use of the logo for commercial purposes could be a concern; I could see an argument perhaps saying that the businesses should have more control over their trademarked property in the sense that there could be confusion of whether they're working with Grubhub (they're certainly not endorsing Grubhub). But apart from that, use of the business's information (including name) to describe what restaurants Grubhub will pick up from is nominative fair use. If I make a list of "businesses in my home town," McDonald's can't use trademark law to keep their name off my list. Same deal here.
  - acdha 6y ago
    Again, it’s misrepresentation: if they had a website and phone staff who made it very clear that they were unaffiliated with the listed business they would not be getting sued any more than a travel agent gets sued for buying airline tickets.
acdha 6y ago
It’s still misrepresentation - would you really be okay with me putting up a bunch of pages pretending to be you with your name, photo, CV, etc. on the claim that’ll I’ll pass along any messages? Now remember that GrubHub is doing this to make money, so I’ll take 30% off of all receipts before I kick the actual work over to you. Oh, and GrubHub and UberEats like to do this to see which markets are the most profitable so I’ll be using your customer’s questions and orders as the basis for the ghost shop which will be undercutting you.
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
The biggest issue, that we have around here, is that GH, and a few other outfits, SEO-spam their listings, sometimes, using branding elements taken directly from the restaurant's sites, and force themselves to the top of searches. If there are any issues with the order, I guarantee that GH does a quick dash for the door, leaving the restaurant holding the bag. The problem may have occurred anyway, but the customer was actually GH, not the person who called GH. GH made a sale, got a commission, then didn't have to stand behind their sale. It may not be illegal, but it is not-nice.

by acoard 6y ago

tartoran 6y ago

> I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with what GrubHub is doing, but I could see them needing to clearly note the relationship. There are lots of personal shopping/delivery services which phone in orders and go pick something up without having a pre-existing relationship with the restaurant. The problem is that Grubhub is not asking permission to list the business on their site and it borders on abusive behavior. The said business may have an ordering system already or a phone number to order because they simply don't to share a hefty cut with Grubhub. Why they don't simply ask for permission? Because some restaurants wouldn't give it and Grubhub forces their hand. I think this is what this lawsuit is about.

chrisseaton 6y ago
> The problem is that Grubhub is not asking permission But nothing says they have to as far as I know? Do you have to ask permission from an author before you resell a book you own? > because they simply don't to share a hefty cut with Grubhub They don't have to share a cut in this case. The restaurant still gets the full retail price that they set. Grubhub marks up on top of that or takes it as a loss as I understand. > Why they don't simply ask for permission? They don't want to. Do they need any more reason than that?
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Yes they have to ask for permission to present themselves as an agent of the company, which they do when they present their own phone number as the restaurant phone number. So I imagine the lawsuit will have many legs to stand on. This is business, which has many rules. Its not just 'do whatever you like as long as it makes money'.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Are they claiming to be the restaurant? Or just saying you can phone this number and get the advertised product, which is true?
    - nobody9999 6y ago
      >Are they claiming to be the restaurant? Or just saying you can phone this number and get the advertised product, which is true? Here's an example. The site linked (menupages.com) is owned by Grubhub/Seamless. The telephone number is not the actual phone number of the restaurant, and attempting to order through this site gives no hint that you're using Grubhub/Seamless. https://menupages.com/tropical-sensation/953-amsterdam-st-new-york https://menupages.com/tropical-sensation/953-amsterdam-st-ne... While search engines seem to have backed off putting GrubHub's fake websites near the top of searches, this has been a widespread practice by them for a long time[0]: "The company has registered a lot of fake websites. GrubHub has registered either a bit more than 23,000 websites, according to the New Food Economy, or 34,000 over the last nine years, per the New York Post’s report. The last domain GrubHub registered was in May, when the Post detailed the company’s practice of creating phone numbers for restaurants in order to drive up its own sales." [0] https://www.grubstreet.com/2019/07/everything-you-need-to-know-about-grubhubs-fake-websites.html https://www.grubstreet.com/2019/07/everything-you-need-to-kn...
  - shermheadryder 6y ago
    > Yes they have to ask for permission to present themselves as an agent of the company That's not necessarily true (yet), that's literally what this legal case is about.
- pc86 6y ago
  In your book example, I am buying a book from you. A better example would be you buy search ads for the author's name, create a website with a button "Contact the author" which goes to you, and then you sell me the book.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    And I’m buying the food from GrubHub who buy the food from the restaurant. Like if I buy a book from a bookshop who buy it from the publisher.
    - throw_m239339 6y ago
      > A Like if I buy a book from a bookshop who buy it from the publisher. No it is not the same, because there is no business agreement between Grubhub and the restaurant here unwilling and unaware restaurants aren't "kitchens" working for Grubhub. Grubhub wouldn't dare pulling that stunt with McDonalds or BurgerKing and list their products, use their corporate identity and sandwich pictures without an agreement or striking a deal before hand. They are preying on smaller restaurants because they know it's harder for the little guy to fight back, it's the very definition of predatory behaviour. You just don't see anything wrong with that.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > because there is no business agreement between Grubhub and the restaurant You don’t need an agreement to resell product that you have purchased. Or is everyone on HN now suddenly in favour of scrapping the first sale doctrine and allowing manufacturers to control if you can resell your property? Madness. If GrubHub are able to buy the product they should be able to resell it.
        throw_m239339 6y ago
        > You don’t need an agreement to resell product that you have purchased. You are ignoring 80% of my argumentations to make your sophistic point, and then complaining "about everyone on HN", you're just being disingenuous. We're talking about prepared food here (and potentially fraud), not books. And you talk to me about "first sale doctrine" in relation to prepared food claiming everybody here is ignorant?
shadowgovt 6y ago
Why should they need to ask for permission? Businesses operate in the public sphere; they have physical addresses and show up in business listings, so their locations and info aren't private. The use of the logo for commercial purposes could be a concern; I could see an argument perhaps saying that the businesses should have more control over their trademarked property in the sense that there could be confusion of whether they're working with Grubhub (they're certainly not endorsing Grubhub). But apart from that, use of the business's information (including name) to describe what restaurants Grubhub will pick up from is nominative fair use. If I make a list of "businesses in my home town," McDonald's can't use trademark law to keep their name off my list. Same deal here.
- acdha 6y ago
  Again, it’s misrepresentation: if they had a website and phone staff who made it very clear that they were unaffiliated with the listed business they would not be getting sued any more than a travel agent gets sued for buying airline tickets.

acdha 6y ago

It’s still misrepresentation - would you really be okay with me putting up a bunch of pages pretending to be you with your name, photo, CV, etc. on the claim that’ll I’ll pass along any messages? Now remember that GrubHub is doing this to make money, so I’ll take 30% off of all receipts before I kick the actual work over to you. Oh, and GrubHub and UberEats like to do this to see which markets are the most profitable so I’ll be using your customer’s questions and orders as the basis for the ghost shop which will be undercutting you.

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

The biggest issue, that we have around here, is that GH, and a few other outfits, SEO-spam their listings, sometimes, using branding elements taken directly from the restaurant's sites, and force themselves to the top of searches. If there are any issues with the order, I guarantee that GH does a quick dash for the door, leaving the restaurant holding the bag. The problem may have occurred anyway, but the customer was actually GH, not the person who called GH. GH made a sale, got a commission, then didn't have to stand behind their sale. It may not be illegal, but it is not-nice.