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This. I'm lucky to have made it from a medium Eastern European city to a software engineer job in UK, but I can only imagine it would've been so much more diffi

This. I'm lucky to have made it from a medium Eastern European city to a software engineer job in UK, but I can only imagine it would've been so much more difficult (if not impossible) if the pool of people with the same level of knowledge and interest was 10x bigger. Spending many years studying/working to end up in a job with no growth prospects would be a very bitter pill to swallow.

simonh 6y ago
I studies CS back in the 80s and back then every student I knew was genuinely interested in the subject and motivated to learn. In my last job at a bank I regularly interviewed recent CS graduates and candidates able to demonstrate a genuine passion for the subject were few and far between. I know, I know, get off my lawn.
- the_only_law 6y ago
  I mean I genuinely beleive I still have passion for this subject, I just absolutely hate the career field.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    Couple decades ago CS was dominated by people who wanted high income. Each class would 1-2 people in it that were genuinely interested in computers. Early web startup cultures were heavy on college drop outs who had passed the professors in “useful” skills.
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      Because the 'S' in CS is for 'science'. The degree is a study of the fundamental underpinnings of computer use. Not a tech-ed employment-training class. Sounds like folks who love the field but hate the job, should teach!
      - HarryHirsch 6y ago
        Sounds like folks who love the field but hate the job, should teach! The trouble is that the students will see the instructor as the barrier between them abd a paying career.
      - treeman79 6y ago
        This is both true and false. I loved solving problems with computers in high school. Didn’t give a crap about theory unless it helped me solve harder problems. So more engineer then scientist. Choice for college path. Computer Management or Computer Science. Once of those was about buying software and managing people. Other was learning fundamentals so I could build cool stuff.
        the_only_law 6y ago
        The problem is I dont really feel like an engineer or a scientist. I'm definitely not a good engineer partly because I don't care enough, but I'm neither smart nor educated enough to be a scientist. I'd personally describe myself as more of a hacker, but thats not particularly useful for much.
        JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        To teach, you only have to be one lesson ahead of the students. And there's lots of teaching to be done, before the hard science kicks in. So plenty of room for everybody!
        toast0 6y ago
        To teach professionally, you also need to get whatever credentials the institution requires. I don't think my community college cared too much about formal credentials other than warm body and background check, but my four-year school seemed to prefer a PhD or a masters with industry experience. My kid's school district recently put out a call for substitute teachers which requires a bachelors degree (any field), a background check, and a whole lot of patience (not specifically listed).
  - simonh 6y ago
    I suppose that's understandable too. To be clear I'm not saying there aren't any with a passion for the subject, there are probably just as many now as were. Probably more. But there are also a lot of people going into it for whom it's just another career, and that's fine as long as there are enough jobs for them and they're willing to work. The problems come when there aren't.
- foobarian 6y ago
  I've seen this as a teaching assistant. CS class size went from a few 10s to over a 100 in 1999-2001, then dropped again when the gold chasers went somewhere else. I did not find the boom period as bad as I expected. Many of the students in it for the money were still very smart and motivated and interesting to talk to. But I preferred the non-boom periods nonetheless :)
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    As a student starting at that time, it was actually very frustrating. Universities hadn't caught up on having enough lecturers/TAs (or they hired a lot of TAs but they were very inexperienced and your odds of getting a good one were not good). Class sizes soaring also meant reduced time with instructors in office hours, and reduced opportunities for working with researchers (that is, a decent but average student had a shot before, but suddenly had none due to the glut of candidates).
    - godelski 6y ago
      The TA thing is pretty normal. I'm a TA this term as my new funding is being being worked out because it takes 6 months to do. So I'm TAing a class on assembly which I have no experience and don't even have a CS undergraduate degree. It sucks for us too as a have one class that expects 30hrs/wk of work (+another class), my research (what I want to spend all my time on), and TAing takes 18hrs/wk. You're only going to get a good TA when that professor is teaching a class that's their focus and has a grad student that has that fucus AND that student isn't on other research funding. The system is far from optional for either undergrads or grads. Believe me, I'm not happy either
  - watwut 6y ago
    > Many of the students in it for the money were still very smart and motivated and interesting to talk to. It is because people are not one dimensional. Most people have talent for range of professions, they are not predisposed to like exactly one of them. Also, most good students will end up liking whatever they picked provided it is within range of things they are not completely failing at. Learning something often makes one like it more, even if one was initially ambivalent. Plus, once you know a bit more about field, you can find sub-field you are actually good at and find fun. As in, various tech jobs require slightly different aptitudes - some require more patience, some more abstract thinking, others memory. But, you dont know until you try.
- TuringNYC 6y ago
  >> I studies CS back in the 80s and back then every student I knew was genuinely interested in the subject and motivated to learn. In my last job at a bank I regularly interviewed recent CS graduates and candidates able to demonstrate a genuine passion for the subject were few and far between. You are comparing college students from the 1980s to those from 20xx. I'll tell you what is on the mind of the new students: how the heck do I pay my student loans and save up for a $2M starter home It is easy to have passion when you barely have student loans and can buy a home with a year or two of earnings. In case you point out that salaries were also lower back then, i'll give you that, but the ratio of salary/debt and salary/homeprice was far more reasonable back then than now. EDIT: This is a US-centric view, not necessarily a global view. Further, it is a SF/SV/NYC centric view since that is where a majority of tech+banking jobs are.
  - silvestrov 6y ago
    > how the heck do I pay my student loans and save up for a $2M starter home Not valid for Scandinavia. In Denmark we get paid approx $1000 per month (like a wage) for studying and we pay $0 for attending university. You only have to pay for your own computer. Some students have a part time job, some get extra money from parents. So many students get by with zero loans.
    - TuringNYC 6y ago
      My apologies. I was thinking of this comment with too much of a US-centric view.
    - C1sc0cat 6y ago
      And what proportion of 18/19 year olds goto university?
      - Gwypaas 6y ago
        It's a different culture than the US. Not at all the same pressure to immediately go to university, many people get jobs and travel while feeling out what field they really want to enter. This is of course dependent on the current jobs market. Personally I had three years. Then university has nothing of the general courses and only specialized following your program. You have some statistics in page 7 here, for Sweden though. It is influenced by people taking single courses and masters programs instead of the first enrollment so keep that in mind. https://www.uhr.se/globalassets/_uhr.se/publikationer/2020/snabbrapport-ht-2020-sista-anmalningsdag-200423.pdf https://www.uhr.se/globalassets/_uhr.se/publikationer/2020/s...
- watwut 6y ago
  Then again, banks are not exactly attracting people with "genuine passion for the subject".
1234letshaveatw 6y ago
The inverse is true as well. Good luck getting a spot on the on the schedule for anyone in the skilled trades in the US. Plumbers and HVAC companies charge through the roof and never can fill vacancies (at least with anyone reliable)

simonh 6y ago

I studies CS back in the 80s and back then every student I knew was genuinely interested in the subject and motivated to learn. In my last job at a bank I regularly interviewed recent CS graduates and candidates able to demonstrate a genuine passion for the subject were few and far between. I know, I know, get off my lawn.

the_only_law 6y ago
I mean I genuinely beleive I still have passion for this subject, I just absolutely hate the career field.
- treeman79 6y ago
  Couple decades ago CS was dominated by people who wanted high income. Each class would 1-2 people in it that were genuinely interested in computers. Early web startup cultures were heavy on college drop outs who had passed the professors in “useful” skills.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Because the 'S' in CS is for 'science'. The degree is a study of the fundamental underpinnings of computer use. Not a tech-ed employment-training class. Sounds like folks who love the field but hate the job, should teach!
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      Sounds like folks who love the field but hate the job, should teach! The trouble is that the students will see the instructor as the barrier between them abd a paying career.
    - treeman79 6y ago
      This is both true and false. I loved solving problems with computers in high school. Didn’t give a crap about theory unless it helped me solve harder problems. So more engineer then scientist. Choice for college path. Computer Management or Computer Science. Once of those was about buying software and managing people. Other was learning fundamentals so I could build cool stuff.
      - the_only_law 6y ago
        The problem is I dont really feel like an engineer or a scientist. I'm definitely not a good engineer partly because I don't care enough, but I'm neither smart nor educated enough to be a scientist. I'd personally describe myself as more of a hacker, but thats not particularly useful for much.
        JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        To teach, you only have to be one lesson ahead of the students. And there's lots of teaching to be done, before the hard science kicks in. So plenty of room for everybody!
        toast0 6y ago
        To teach professionally, you also need to get whatever credentials the institution requires. I don't think my community college cared too much about formal credentials other than warm body and background check, but my four-year school seemed to prefer a PhD or a masters with industry experience. My kid's school district recently put out a call for substitute teachers which requires a bachelors degree (any field), a background check, and a whole lot of patience (not specifically listed).
- simonh 6y ago
  I suppose that's understandable too. To be clear I'm not saying there aren't any with a passion for the subject, there are probably just as many now as were. Probably more. But there are also a lot of people going into it for whom it's just another career, and that's fine as long as there are enough jobs for them and they're willing to work. The problems come when there aren't.
foobarian 6y ago
I've seen this as a teaching assistant. CS class size went from a few 10s to over a 100 in 1999-2001, then dropped again when the gold chasers went somewhere else. I did not find the boom period as bad as I expected. Many of the students in it for the money were still very smart and motivated and interesting to talk to. But I preferred the non-boom periods nonetheless :)
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  As a student starting at that time, it was actually very frustrating. Universities hadn't caught up on having enough lecturers/TAs (or they hired a lot of TAs but they were very inexperienced and your odds of getting a good one were not good). Class sizes soaring also meant reduced time with instructors in office hours, and reduced opportunities for working with researchers (that is, a decent but average student had a shot before, but suddenly had none due to the glut of candidates).
  - godelski 6y ago
    The TA thing is pretty normal. I'm a TA this term as my new funding is being being worked out because it takes 6 months to do. So I'm TAing a class on assembly which I have no experience and don't even have a CS undergraduate degree. It sucks for us too as a have one class that expects 30hrs/wk of work (+another class), my research (what I want to spend all my time on), and TAing takes 18hrs/wk. You're only going to get a good TA when that professor is teaching a class that's their focus and has a grad student that has that fucus AND that student isn't on other research funding. The system is far from optional for either undergrads or grads. Believe me, I'm not happy either
- watwut 6y ago
  > Many of the students in it for the money were still very smart and motivated and interesting to talk to. It is because people are not one dimensional. Most people have talent for range of professions, they are not predisposed to like exactly one of them. Also, most good students will end up liking whatever they picked provided it is within range of things they are not completely failing at. Learning something often makes one like it more, even if one was initially ambivalent. Plus, once you know a bit more about field, you can find sub-field you are actually good at and find fun. As in, various tech jobs require slightly different aptitudes - some require more patience, some more abstract thinking, others memory. But, you dont know until you try.
TuringNYC 6y ago
>> I studies CS back in the 80s and back then every student I knew was genuinely interested in the subject and motivated to learn. In my last job at a bank I regularly interviewed recent CS graduates and candidates able to demonstrate a genuine passion for the subject were few and far between. You are comparing college students from the 1980s to those from 20xx. I'll tell you what is on the mind of the new students: how the heck do I pay my student loans and save up for a $2M starter home It is easy to have passion when you barely have student loans and can buy a home with a year or two of earnings. In case you point out that salaries were also lower back then, i'll give you that, but the ratio of salary/debt and salary/homeprice was far more reasonable back then than now. EDIT: This is a US-centric view, not necessarily a global view. Further, it is a SF/SV/NYC centric view since that is where a majority of tech+banking jobs are.
- silvestrov 6y ago
  > how the heck do I pay my student loans and save up for a $2M starter home Not valid for Scandinavia. In Denmark we get paid approx $1000 per month (like a wage) for studying and we pay $0 for attending university. You only have to pay for your own computer. Some students have a part time job, some get extra money from parents. So many students get by with zero loans.
  - TuringNYC 6y ago
    My apologies. I was thinking of this comment with too much of a US-centric view.
  - C1sc0cat 6y ago
    And what proportion of 18/19 year olds goto university?
    - Gwypaas 6y ago
      It's a different culture than the US. Not at all the same pressure to immediately go to university, many people get jobs and travel while feeling out what field they really want to enter. This is of course dependent on the current jobs market. Personally I had three years. Then university has nothing of the general courses and only specialized following your program. You have some statistics in page 7 here, for Sweden though. It is influenced by people taking single courses and masters programs instead of the first enrollment so keep that in mind. https://www.uhr.se/globalassets/_uhr.se/publikationer/2020/snabbrapport-ht-2020-sista-anmalningsdag-200423.pdf https://www.uhr.se/globalassets/_uhr.se/publikationer/2020/s...
watwut 6y ago
Then again, banks are not exactly attracting people with "genuine passion for the subject".

1234letshaveatw 6y ago

The inverse is true as well. Good luck getting a spot on the on the schedule for anyone in the skilled trades in the US. Plumbers and HVAC companies charge through the roof and never can fill vacancies (at least with anyone reliable)