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> It's a war crime to attack hospitals Bombing an hospital is a war crime. Letting some malware find it's way into misconfigured Microsoft computers is not.

by ElDji 6y ago

meowface 6y ago
>Letting some malware find it's way into misconfigured Microsoft computers is not. Especially more recently, ransomware gangs have been deliberately targeting specific organizations. It's not necessarily just a matter of malware spreading rampantly and it happening to land on a hospital system before encrypting all their shares automatically. I'm sure that still occurs, but a lot of them are now picking organizations ahead of time and doing more sophisticated, hand-tailored things to try to get in and encrypt as many files across the network as possible, then explicitly setting and negotiating a hefty ransom based on what they think the organization is able to pay.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> Letting some malware find it's way into misconfigured Microsoft computers is not I believe it is. And if a nation were found to be attacking or knowingly permitting the attack of American hospitals in the midst of a pandemic, a physical strike against their military assets (though not personnel) would be proportional. But this has to be made clear ex ante, which it hasn’t been.
- babuskov 6y ago
  > a physical strike against their military assets though not personnel would be proportional. What if that other country has nuclear weapons? Would WWIII start with cyber attacks first?
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    Well, you might ask that of the attacking country yourself But apparently they know that people are hesitant in retaliating As I have said before, paying ransoms and not retaliating is a good way to keep being attacked and asked for even more ransoms
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > What if that other country has nuclear weapons? This is a solved problem. Nuclear powers routinely skirmish, usually through proxies. Other non-violent but serious responses include closing consulates, enacting sanctions and increasing military deployments close to the enemy’s border.
    - jariel 6y ago
      It's not a 'solved problem'. If the Iranians were behind a cyberattack on hospitals, they may or may not bet a bombing run. But if the Russians were behind it, there's not telling what would happen. Probably sanctions and maybe even specific sanctions against specific individuals.
- AshamedCaptain 6y ago
  Careful with this. This is not a black and white issue. Or should we go to the 90s where you could be fined because you "hacked" a MS webserver by typing ".." in the URL bar and the webserver dutifully responded by showing you dir contents _outside_ the web root? Something which you could do almost by accident with a poorly managed copy & paste. There's not that clear balance between "the door was locked and I broke in" and "you were not even trying to secure this", and I would bet that most of these hospitals tilt to the later (MUMPS comes to mind), up to the point you can cause great havoc just by accident. So I would definitely argue against any absolute "everything is a malware attack" classification.
  - lostmsu 6y ago
    I would totally agree with you in case of criminal organization (though considering the potential damage the prosecution should be more severe). But in case of government-organized attack on hospitals in another country, it would be in the spirit of that international law to treat is the same, because the motive and impact are similar. At the very least country doing this should be isolated.
baq 6y ago
if the only difference is that the building is still standing, does it matter? an empty hospital is as functional as the parking lot next to it, perhaps less so.
op00to 6y ago
Many doors in a hospital are unlocked, but lead to spaces that are not for the public. Does that mean you are entitled to go in the doors that are unlocked, but not for the general public, then tear the place up and take a massive shit on the floor?

> It's a war crime to attack hospitals Bombing an hospital is a war crime. Letting some malware find it's way into misconfigured Microsoft computers is not.

by ElDji 6y ago

> It's a war crime to attack hospitals Bombing an hospital is a war crime. Letting some malware find it's way into misconfigured Microsoft computers is not.

meowface 6y ago

>Letting some malware find it's way into misconfigured Microsoft computers is not. Especially more recently, ransomware gangs have been deliberately targeting specific organizations. It's not necessarily just a matter of malware spreading rampantly and it happening to land on a hospital system before encrypting all their shares automatically. I'm sure that still occurs, but a lot of them are now picking organizations ahead of time and doing more sophisticated, hand-tailored things to try to get in and encrypt as many files across the network as possible, then explicitly setting and negotiating a hefty ransom based on what they think the organization is able to pay.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> Letting some malware find it's way into misconfigured Microsoft computers is not I believe it is. And if a nation were found to be attacking or knowingly permitting the attack of American hospitals in the midst of a pandemic, a physical strike against their military assets (though not personnel) would be proportional. But this has to be made clear ex ante, which it hasn’t been.

babuskov 6y ago
> a physical strike against their military assets though not personnel would be proportional. What if that other country has nuclear weapons? Would WWIII start with cyber attacks first?
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Well, you might ask that of the attacking country yourself But apparently they know that people are hesitant in retaliating As I have said before, paying ransoms and not retaliating is a good way to keep being attacked and asked for even more ransoms
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > What if that other country has nuclear weapons? This is a solved problem. Nuclear powers routinely skirmish, usually through proxies. Other non-violent but serious responses include closing consulates, enacting sanctions and increasing military deployments close to the enemy’s border.
  - jariel 6y ago
    It's not a 'solved problem'. If the Iranians were behind a cyberattack on hospitals, they may or may not bet a bombing run. But if the Russians were behind it, there's not telling what would happen. Probably sanctions and maybe even specific sanctions against specific individuals.
AshamedCaptain 6y ago
Careful with this. This is not a black and white issue. Or should we go to the 90s where you could be fined because you "hacked" a MS webserver by typing ".." in the URL bar and the webserver dutifully responded by showing you dir contents _outside_ the web root? Something which you could do almost by accident with a poorly managed copy & paste. There's not that clear balance between "the door was locked and I broke in" and "you were not even trying to secure this", and I would bet that most of these hospitals tilt to the later (MUMPS comes to mind), up to the point you can cause great havoc just by accident. So I would definitely argue against any absolute "everything is a malware attack" classification.
- lostmsu 6y ago
  I would totally agree with you in case of criminal organization (though considering the potential damage the prosecution should be more severe). But in case of government-organized attack on hospitals in another country, it would be in the spirit of that international law to treat is the same, because the motive and impact are similar. At the very least country doing this should be isolated.

baq 6y ago

if the only difference is that the building is still standing, does it matter? an empty hospital is as functional as the parking lot next to it, perhaps less so.

op00to 6y ago

Many doors in a hospital are unlocked, but lead to spaces that are not for the public. Does that mean you are entitled to go in the doors that are unlocked, but not for the general public, then tear the place up and take a massive shit on the floor?