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> They don't have to be that way. They really have, because that's the sole reason they exist. It's like arguing that a oppressive totalitarian regime doesn't

by barumi 6y ago

> They don't have to be that way. They really have, because that's the sole reason they exist. It's like arguing that a oppressive totalitarian regime doesn't have to oppress their citizens. > (...) they can be tools to communicate to good-faith actors that they will be welcome and safe. CoCs aren't welcoming letters. CoCs are designed with the express purpose of letting you know that you will be punished if you do or say anything that the leader's deem unacceptable, and to be used as the basis for persecuting and punishing you if you still fail to fall in line and comply with the leadership's will. Hell, you don't need to communicate to anyone that they can and will be safe. Either that's already implied, or means nothing if you don't plan to act on it. In fact, it's patently wrong that the goal is safety. It is not. The goal is compliance and submissiveness.

moron4hire 6y ago
> Either that's already implied, A very large group of people have stated many times that that is not the case. They do not feel safe. It's continued assertions that bludgeoning people is the sole reason CoCs exist that make those people feel like they are being completely ignored. > or means nothing if you don't plan to act on it That is literally what I said. "And they are meaningless if the leadership is not trained on those commitments."
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  A very large group of people have stated many times that that is not the case. They do not feel safe But what does that even mean in the context of an open source project? How is anyone actually “unsafe” from someone who may be on another continent and have no idea where they live? The word “unsafe” doesn’t mean anything any more, it’s just used to silence debate. “I feel unsafe so you should merge my PR without doing any code review” is what they mean.
  - scatters 6y ago
    Really, finding out where someone lives is not that hard, especially if they have a professional or social life. And you can do significant damage to someone's career without knowing where they live.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      CoCs has made life scarier. It wasn't until PyCon that I considered anyone could be for for a joke(?) told to a friend next to you, overheard by someone who was supposed to be a developer advocate!.
      - goatinaboat 6y ago
        overheard by someone who was supposed to be a developer advocate But not a developer themselves. The industry is overrun with these “tech-adjacent” roles that add only marginal value, if any. Members of this group seem to be the driving force behind CoCs.
      - pseudalopex 6y ago
        The PyCon incident had nothing to do with the code of conduct. They even added a rule against publicizing incidents before staff can investigate.
  - jawarner 6y ago
    > The word “unsafe” doesn’t mean anything any more An alternate possibility is that you don't understand what people mean when they say they feel unsafe. Do you feel you have invested effort into empathizing with these concerns, or would you say your are more dismissive?
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      An alternate possibility is that you don't understand what people mean when they say they feel unsafe. That is a possibility, but it’s unreasonable to expect that a person can redefine a common word in their own mind and expect everyone else to telepathically know what they “mean”. Especially in a primarily text based medium.
      - jawarner 6y ago
        > it’s unreasonable to expect that a person can redefine a common word in their own mind I mean, the word is used a lot. You even referenced it being commonly used. Have you tried to understand it?
        skinkestek 6y ago
        I for one refuse to play this game anymore. I don't want to be part of a game where words can be arbitrarily redefined by one party to mean exactly what they want it to mean now. It is enough now. And this is coming from someone who wasn't allowed to play in the schoolyard as a child, someone who was knocked in the head by an older classmate, got beaten etc while teachers looked the other way. This went on until I learned to fight back and I got a teacher who didn't care that I was outgroup and stood up for me. My mind and body knows a bit about this and I'm confident that what we are seing here isn't a solution rather than extremists making things worse.
        jawarner 6y ago
        It's clear you've had experiences that have caused you to feel unsafe at times in your life. What's stopping you from having empathy for people that feel that way currently? One aspect of this newfangled definition of safe is that women can feel confident existing in a space without fear of being sexually harassed. Is that worth considering? Is that a political game?

by barumi 6y ago

moron4hire 6y ago

> Either that's already implied, A very large group of people have stated many times that that is not the case. They do not feel safe. It's continued assertions that bludgeoning people is the sole reason CoCs exist that make those people feel like they are being completely ignored. > or means nothing if you don't plan to act on it That is literally what I said. "And they are meaningless if the leadership is not trained on those commitments."

goatinaboat 6y ago
A very large group of people have stated many times that that is not the case. They do not feel safe But what does that even mean in the context of an open source project? How is anyone actually “unsafe” from someone who may be on another continent and have no idea where they live? The word “unsafe” doesn’t mean anything any more, it’s just used to silence debate. “I feel unsafe so you should merge my PR without doing any code review” is what they mean.
- scatters 6y ago
  Really, finding out where someone lives is not that hard, especially if they have a professional or social life. And you can do significant damage to someone's career without knowing where they live.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    CoCs has made life scarier. It wasn't until PyCon that I considered anyone could be for for a joke(?) told to a friend next to you, overheard by someone who was supposed to be a developer advocate!.
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      overheard by someone who was supposed to be a developer advocate But not a developer themselves. The industry is overrun with these “tech-adjacent” roles that add only marginal value, if any. Members of this group seem to be the driving force behind CoCs.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      The PyCon incident had nothing to do with the code of conduct. They even added a rule against publicizing incidents before staff can investigate.
- jawarner 6y ago
  > The word “unsafe” doesn’t mean anything any more An alternate possibility is that you don't understand what people mean when they say they feel unsafe. Do you feel you have invested effort into empathizing with these concerns, or would you say your are more dismissive?
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    An alternate possibility is that you don't understand what people mean when they say they feel unsafe. That is a possibility, but it’s unreasonable to expect that a person can redefine a common word in their own mind and expect everyone else to telepathically know what they “mean”. Especially in a primarily text based medium.
    - jawarner 6y ago
      > it’s unreasonable to expect that a person can redefine a common word in their own mind I mean, the word is used a lot. You even referenced it being commonly used. Have you tried to understand it?
      - skinkestek 6y ago
        I for one refuse to play this game anymore. I don't want to be part of a game where words can be arbitrarily redefined by one party to mean exactly what they want it to mean now. It is enough now. And this is coming from someone who wasn't allowed to play in the schoolyard as a child, someone who was knocked in the head by an older classmate, got beaten etc while teachers looked the other way. This went on until I learned to fight back and I got a teacher who didn't care that I was outgroup and stood up for me. My mind and body knows a bit about this and I'm confident that what we are seing here isn't a solution rather than extremists making things worse.
        jawarner 6y ago
        It's clear you've had experiences that have caused you to feel unsafe at times in your life. What's stopping you from having empathy for people that feel that way currently? One aspect of this newfangled definition of safe is that women can feel confident existing in a space without fear of being sexually harassed. Is that worth considering? Is that a political game?