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Canadian military tested propaganda mission on Canadians that went off the rails
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Canada 6y agoWow that's sure embarassing. Aesop's boy couldn't afford half as many fake social media accounts as the Canadian Forces have and he yet he still got the job done.
- fudged71 6y agoReminds me of something I did in engineering school. I was part of a consulting engineering competition at school which was sponsored by a large oil and gas company. Their representatives (judges) gave us a real map of a “fictional” area, which we had to analyze for a feasibility study of water sourcing. There was a unique shaped lake on the map. With access to GIS maps we found the actual location. It was very improbable, a tiny lake in a gigantic land area. We found all the wells in the area and who owned them. We found a town nearby. Instead of a fictional study we went ahead and used real data, real examples, and we called real people in the town for their perspectives on the matter. The O&G representatives judging our competition were nearly fired. They were terrified when they learned we talked to locals, and repeatedly asked if we mentioned O&G-CO’s brand name on the calls.
- ringading 6y agoHey, I remember doing that. Good times.
- shostack 6y agoI might be dense here, but why was it problematic?
- dylan604 6y agoNIMBY is strong. When people find out that O&G is making calls to residents in an area, people mobilize to protest. These people would be protesting something that didn't exist. Nobody likes fighting a negative PR campaign like that. That's just a single example off the top of my head
- deanCommie 6y agoAlternative interpretation: O&G Company was planning to get their plan in order first for how they would drill the area, then figure out how to convince the residents to support the project. By flipping the script, and revealing the information early they gave the residents more power to push back against the project or expect more equitable compensation.
- fudged71 6y agoThe O&G company had no intention of doing this project, it was entirely fictional
- deanCommie 6y agoThe implication in the story as told is the O&G company was using free college labor to do real work. That is completely with precedent.
- ericmay 6y agoYou say NIMBY like it's a bad thing.... Why shouldn't communities be able to organize when something threatens their interests and vote against it or find another solution?
- dylan604 6y agoNo I did not. Don't read into things that aren't there. Just because I used the phrase NIMBY does not mean I am against it. I detest how O&G companies behave, however, I can also see exactly why this example would drive them mad. They have to gear up for exactly this type of reaction when they do want to move into an area, so to have to gear up for a fight when there are no plans just means spending effort on something totally stupid.
- mabbo 6y agoDid you win? I mean, clearly yours was the best.
- fudged71 6y agoWe did
- Waterluvian 6y agoThis is all such nonsense. You don't need to develop your talent for misinformation warfare. You just have to be prepared to crime it up and forge an official looking document. Anyone can accomplish this same feat.
- jml7c5 6y agoI don't think it's quite that simple. There are all sorts of small things people can miss during document forging: leaking of metadata (not stripping a PDF), leaking of IPs, bad forging (a notable example is the "Killian documents", purportedly from 1973 but which were probably made with Microsoft Word[0]). Distribution/guiding matters too, especially on the internet: what's the best way to place it so it will spread? What techniques will be caught? Should you run a botnet? How difficult is it to evade detection? Light touch or heavy handed? Do you need a base of fake accounts years in advance, or can you create them at the time? Red team/blue team exercises are valuable for defense. If you "practice" only by examining real-world propaganda, you can't debrief the opposition at the end. And if you can't debrief the attacker, you can't find out what you missed and what would have been effective. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy
- rurounijones 6y agoI know the value of propaganda but the idea that a mlitary trains to produce patently false propaganda targeted at its own civilian in the guise of the civilian government without its knowledge is disturbing. Especially when the training has nothing to do with military matters and, as in this situation, is completely untrue and impersonates part of the civilian government. This seems like a massive violation of ethics. Given what happened (Actual loudspeakers deployed) I doubt the official "Tt was as an internal training aid and never actually meant to be put into practice" explantion, that seems to require a set of steps that requires extraordinary levels of stupidity to the point that I don't believe Hanlon's Razor is adequate reasoning. And if it is just colossal levels of stupidity / lack of oversight / lack of process then I do not believe the military should be trusted with such operations in the first place, training or no training.
- hammock 6y ago>I know the value of propaganda but the idea that a mlitary trains to produce patently false propaganda targeted at its own civilian in the guise of the civilian government without its knowledge is disturbing. You ought to look up Operation Mockingbird, the Nariyah testimony, there are other examples. The activities you describe are widespread in the US. There was also someone did a study of some cable news network that found 92% of guests were current or former government officials, retired generals etc (AKA likely on CIA or military intelligence payroll)
- rurounijones 6y agoI always wonder if the US is an outlier in stuff like this with Mockingbird, MKUltra etc. or if they are the ones that get caught and publicised the most in relation to other countries.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- TeMPOraL 6y agoI'm guessing US is one of the very few countries that have enough money flowing to the military and intelligence that they can afford such projects. Most other countries probably prioritize their limited budgets on less... exploratory endeavors.
- dmckeon 6y agoTell: “in search of easy pray” spellchecking != proof reading.
- onecommentman 6y agoAlso, “Canadian military tested propaganda mission on Canadians that went off the rails” could be read as the military were testing the propaganda on Canadians who as people were deemed to have “gone off the rails“. Also you can’t test a mission, you can only test an approach to achieving a mission. How about “Snafus during in-country training exercise on propaganda techniques by Canadian military”? As close as I could get...
- zenexer 6y agoThat would be "Canadians who went off the rails." It's silly to get this pedantic as long as the statement isn't misleading. The meaning is fairly clear here; even the "prey vs. pray" issue is unimportant. We all know what the author meant.
- pizza 6y agoI was a bit cramped by the char limit, just tried to use as many words from the original article title/subtitle as possible while still retaining the original meaning
- dmix 6y agoI’m guessing all the real talent is sucked into the spy agencies and American consultancies. Poor small time military information warfare centres don’t get the best thinkers. But still I could see some legal implications since it was used on potentially thousands of civilians. Rumours like that spread fast.
- hammock 6y agoNow imagine the "wolves" are coronavirus, and the "wolf sounds" are case counts...
- mistermann 6y agoThe reporting on that event has been rather "curious" in a number of different ways come to think about it.
- yuskii 6y agoThe only thing Canada is good at, is sucking its own dick.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mxcrossb 6y ago> The fake letter was part of new skills being tested by the military as it hones its expertise for launching propaganda missions at home and abroad. Wow. If the Canadian military should be practicing anything on its own civilians, it should be identifying and stopping propaganda. But test offensive tactics is ridiculously unethical
- 52-6F-62 6y agoI think that's where we're presently running into a paradox, though. Many Canadians (as elsewhere in the world) are falling victim to propaganda like "Covid is a hoax", "Covid is a plot by Bill Gates to implant everyone in the world with microchips", "Masks don't work", "Your rights are being trampled upon", etc etc. One crux of the messaging that comes along with those is that the government is lying to you about absolutely everything and will do whatever they can to prevent you from seeing that information and the "truth". So the Canadian government and military working to identify and stop propaganda in any method validates the misinformation for those people who have fallen victim to it, and subsequently validates the rest of the nonsense they're ingesting that is coupled with it. Catch 22. So I'm just guessing that it was decided the best way to beat it is to undermine it by "being there first"... in short.
- DethNinja 6y agoGovernment spending tax payer money to lie to tax payer, pathetic.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tux1968 6y agoAre you trying to make the citizens of your country distrust everything the media and government says? Because this is how you make the citizens of your country distrust everything the media and government says. In fact, it's not impossible that this is the exact intended effect of this mission. It's easy to think this is just ineffectual bumbling; but the real test might be to see how this "revelation" is used by those who are already suspicious of authority.
- amatecha 6y agoWait a second. "The fake letter was part of new skills being tested by the military as it hones its expertise for launching propaganda missions at home and abroad." The Canadian military is launching propaganda missions in Canada? (Or at all, for that matter)? WTF? "The Nova Scotia propaganda training comes as the Canadian Forces spools up its capabilities to conduct information warfare, influence operations and other deception missions aimed at populations overseas and, if necessary, the Canadian public." Uhhhh... like.. hey you're saying the quiet part out loud, guys.
- cconcepts 6y ago"Lets just say it moved me....TO A BIGGER HOUSE" - Krusty The Clown
- loopz 6y agoOf course, their glorious propaganda machine needs funding you see. Great propaganda doesn't write itself!
- l0b0 6y agoThe military doesn't serve the public. Every person in the military serves the one above them, and the ones at the top serve the politicians as long as they keep getting money and being treated like they are the best people in existence.
- bregma 6y ago... and the politicians serve the public. It's service all the way up.
- numpad0 6y agoJust to illustrate, “keep calm and carry on” is a propaganda
- kortilla 6y agoPropaganda isn’t always all bad. It can be re-assuring messages during wartime, reminder that rationing X is helping Y, or that wearing a mask is preventing the spread of a disease.
- emptybits 6y ago“The Nova Scotia propaganda training comes as the Canadian Forces spools up its capabilities to conduct information warfare, influence operations and other deception missions aimed at populations overseas and, if necessary, the Canadian public.” “the Canadian public”?? Canadian here. Wow. Well, there goes a whole bunch of support and respect I may have had for the Canadian Forces and their leadership.
- loopz 6y agoYou always reap what you sow.
- ornornor 6y agoI’m not sure what their operation achieves. Citizens of a democracy and state of law will, of course, trust an official letter from a public government body and believe what it says. What’s the big surprise here? “If we send a letter with fake info but make it look like it was sent by the provincial wildlife dept, people will believe what it says. Hahaha what a bunch of idiots these citizens” Especially that the wildlife department has so little incentive to lie when you think about it: what are they selling? I would have trusted that the letter contains true information myself without really questioning it. It’s concerning this happened at all, but I don’t see the value of this “experiment”.
- lolc 6y agoMaybe it's not an experiment but training. You know you can do it, but your people need to be trained to be able to do it effectively. Of course, actually sending the letters out means the whole training thing has gone off the rails.
- jariel 6y agoIt's a disinformation campaign. The Allies put up fake roadsigns all over Europe during WW2 to confuse the Nazis, this is similar.
- throwaway0a5e 6y agoYou're projecting a lot on others. There are a lot of people who given an official notice would read it and (depending on the contents) go "hahaha what a bunch of idiots these bureaucrats" and throw it in the trash. And this is coming from someone who lives in a US state that is certainly in the top 10 for "blind deference to government".
- imhoguy 6y agoInformation warfare! If it works and is cheaper than oil then no need to send tanks.
- ta8645 6y agoLittle on the nose there Canada. There is literally a children's story about not crying wolf.
- im3w1l 6y agoMaybe that's just it? Meant to ruin the credibility of the party they pretend to be.
- jariel 6y ago'Halifax Rifles Reserve Unit' LOL! This is some guys's weekend beer fantasy. This would be a good Netflix comedy. I think some commenters here are overstating the situation. This is not 'National Defense HQ' thinking 'hey let's try this out on the dumb plebes' - this is 'Bob' the 'Captain' in the Halifax Rifles but really a Restaurant Manager by day, who watches way too many History Channel war documentaries who decided to do his own training - or something along those lines. I don't know the truth but I would be shocked if this were approved from those above the reserve unit.
- ficklepickle 6y agoSo Bob has $1 million in petty cash for enacting his fantasies? I find that unlikely.
- jariel 6y ago??? You misread the article. Bob didn't spend $1M. The government spent $1M training on these kind of disinformation campaigns, as part of normal training budget. Bob releasing propaganda into the general Canadian public has nothing to do with the specific training he received. It's unlikely that NDHQ was authorizing spreading arbitrary disinformation among the general public.
- jariel 6y agoYou have all been 'victims' of propaganda in the last few months with respect to COVID, it's happening in front of our eyes. Propaganda is just heavy-handed PR used especially during times of crisis, and usually by civilian governments, not the military. In fact - this military exercise really is more under the category of 'psy ops' or 'battlefield disinformation' rather than 'propaganda'. The most classical forms of 'propaganda' would be the glorification to the point of misrepresentation of activities to ensure popular support and calm concerns back home during a war. So, the short-reels produced by the government and distributed to movie houses during WW2 would have been a form of propaganda. The classic 'Uncle Sam Wants YOU!' posters as well. As for contemporary propaganda - right now, during COVID we are absolutely being subject to forms of propaganda particularly related to masks. Do you remember at the start of the pandemic and they were saying don't wear masks? And now everyone is shaming those that don't? “There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.” - Dr. Fauci, March 8, 2020. How on earth could we pull a 'moral 180' on some behaviour so quickly without really any new information? "Why are you wearing that mask! Dr. Fauci said no!" ----> "Why are you not wearing a mask, spreader! Dr. Fauci said we need to wear masks!" The line of reasoning was that masks were in deep shortage, and in the scenario it made more sense to get supplies to front line medical staff, and particularly to avoid people hoarding masks. The effectiveness of masks was purposely downplayed to affect desired outcome of the population. You were lied to point blank, or rather, the information you were given was completely misrepresented, on purpose. Note that Dr. Fauci's statement in March 2008 was not 'a lie' - it was in fact factual, just misrepresentative, or rather, it was a specific articulation of facts with some kind of objective in mind. Take a moment of self awareness to grasp this implications of this, and that it was probably rational and necessary. This is the tip of the iceberg, and government officials are concerned with this issue of communications on a daily basis. 'What you are being told' and how you are being 'messaged' is very much controlled, it's not just an information dump of transparency. What we want and need is for behaviour to adapt, not so much for people to be specifically informed, especially on issues that are not hugely practical like the details of r0. This is propaganda. This is a pretty good example of what propaganda is because it demonstrates the moral ambiguity of 'truth, communication and outcomes'. FYI I should note, I'm not against masks or even the current public communications (i.e. propaganda) measures being used there, rather, just illustrating this is absolutely propaganda, i.e. "information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view."
- petee 6y ago"Canadian military tested propaganda mission on Canadians that went off the rails" So they tested the propaganda on crazy Canadians? That's terrible rephrasing
- sandworm101 6y agoWell, at least if they are going to do evil we can rest assured that they aren't very good at it. Speakers in the woods with wolf noises? This sounds like a bad Disney halloween movie. Or that episode of Father Ted. Or that PSA in Talladega Nights about the packs of vicious dogs who control most major cities. I'm concerned about the negative portrayal of wolves. No matter who is saying it, making people overly afraid of wolves endangers the wolves. Even in wolf country, you are still far more likely to be shot by a hunter than eaten by a wolfpack. Wolves are to be respected, not demonized.
- maerF0x0 6y ago> The Canadian Forces stresses that it follows ethical guidelines in its propaganda operations. Can there be such a thing as ethical propaganda? My understanding is that propaganda, by definition, includes at the very least a distortion of the truth.
- ficklepickle 6y agoWhat the fuck is going on in Nova Scotia? First a mass shooter, in a replica police car, with $50k in the trunk from a gov't bank account. No explanation required apparently. Now a fucking psyop against civilians? That is not OK. Something is rotten in Canada. The only saving grace is the immense ineptitude.