5 ms·

This seems similar to the Catholic concept of buying indulgences as a carbon offset type concept against sins. Pay to play

mensetmanusman 6y ago
That is a common misunderstanding of canonical Catholic teaching about "indulgentia a culpa et a poena". Keeping the carbon offset analogy, an indulgence in the Catholic sense would be more akin to first making sure you are carbon neutral (all parties are at peace and forgiven/reconciled), then you spend %10 of your salary to go beyond that and offset the carbon credits of the person you wronged.
- friendlybus 6y ago
  Until Teztel started selling carbon offsets for dead polluters. An offered coin springs a dead soul from purgatory.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    Sounds like a new ICO opportunity :) Would be interesting if there were a climate change coin... oh wait, https://earth-token.com/ https://earth-token.com/
    - schoen 6y ago
      The obvious response is that every PoW coin is a climate change coin. :-(
- el_nahual 6y ago
  An even bigger misconception is that indulgences were actually bought on behalf of _someone else_. They were meant to address a very real problem with catholic heaven/hell theology: What if I belong in heaven, but somene I love, who I can't possibly imagine spending eternity without, belongs in hell? Indulgences were originally meant to address this: the party that belonged in heaven could, through their sacrifice, guarantee a spot in heaven for their loved one. It was only later that the "sacrifice" become strictly monetary.
  - eru 6y ago
    As far as I know, indulgences never got you out of hell. They were to shorten your time in purgatory.
  - mjh2539 6y ago
    Indulgences for the damned were inefficacious and applied to the Church suffering in purgatory.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    >An even bigger misconception is that indulgences were actually bought on behalf of _someone else_. Are you saying it's true that indulgences can be obtained for others or that it's false that indulgences can be obtained for others? In reality indulgences can be obtained for yourself, or for others, including those in Purgatory. They can't be obtained for people in Hell. >It was only later that the "sacrifice" become strictly monetary. Indulgences are not strictly monetary. The vast majority involve no money at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences
- joubert 6y ago
  Instead of sticking with the carbon credits analogy I'll articulate more directly what I understand from reading up on indulgences at https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm For a sin that has already been forgiven, an indulgence is associated payment you owe that if you didn't pay, you will spend more time in purgatory. If this is an accurate reading, does it not dilute the meaning of "forgiven"? Does it not amount to a money-making racket at best, or, more probably, extortion?
  - klodolph 6y ago
    You have some good points, maybe you should write them up and post them up where church-goers would see them, like a church door or something.
    - pbourke 6y ago
      “What’s wrong with the church?! We’ve got some theses!! (You’ll never guess how hard-hitting no. 95 is!) <next>”
    - eru 6y ago
      Though, of course, the church door bit almost surely never happened.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    >Does it not amount to a money-making racket at best, or, more probably, extortion? The vast vast vast majority of indulgences have no money aspect at all. See the list of plenary (meaning all temporal punishment is removed) indulgences on Wikipedia[1], none of them involve money. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    From your link: “ Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. “ One might associate it with helping move an individual from a smaller circle to a larger circle of ethics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanding_Circle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanding_Circle “ Singer discusses the relationship between biological capacity for altruism and morality. He argues that altruism, when directed to one's small circle of family, tribe or even nation, is not moral, but it becomes so when applied to wider circles. “ E.g. charity where you sacrifice your individual goods for the larger community is good for the soul.
- tripzilch 6y ago
  So common in fact, like language, it becomes a prescriptivism / descriptivism thing ...
mjh2539 6y ago
It's not; indulgences remit the temporal punishment associated with sin (mortal sins incur eternal punishment in additional to temporal punishment; merely venial sins incur only temporal punishment). Mortal sin can be forgiven only through contrition and reconciliation. Temporal sin can be forgiven at the leisure of the Church (i.e., through indulgences). To commit a sin with the intention of attempting to obtain forgiveness through reconciliation afterward is itself a mortal sin. Indulgences still exist, and you can still purchase them in the sense that you can make a donation to a priest to offer the sacrifice of the Mass for a specific intention (like the remittance of a portion of the temporal punishment for the sins of a friend or loved one), and the offering of the sacrifice has indulgences associated with it in addition. This is not the only way to gain indulgences. There are many ways to gain them. Praying for the souls of the faithful departed on All Souls Day (in combination with the usual conditions, i.e. a) being in a state of grace, b) having the interior disposition of complete detachment from sin, even venial sin, c) having sacramentally confessed their sins, d) receiving the Holy Eucharist, and e) pray for the intentions of the Supreme Pontiff) on November 2nd allows for one to obtain a plenary indulgence (which remit ALL temporal punishment) either for oneself or for a person of your choosing.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  >To commit a sin with the intention of attempting to obtain forgiveness through reconciliation afterward is itself a mortal sin. Source? If you do it with a mortal sin I can understand it would be a second mortal sin. But it seems harsh to make a venial sin into a mortal sin from this.
  - simonh 6y ago
    The venial sin isn't the problem, you're attempting to deceive God through manipulation. I would think anyway, not a Catholic.
    - Thorrez 6y ago
      I'm not sure I would call it deceit, God is all-knowing. I would consider it taking God's mercy for granted and treating him like a mechanical forgiveness dispenser. I'm hesitant to say it's always a mortal sin, because it seems like it can happen in a lighthearted manner. For example if someone struggles with gluttony, that person might think "I know I shouldn't have a 2nd hamburger, but I'm weak and it would taste so good, I'll have it now and go to confession later". That doesn't seem like mortal sin territory to me.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

That is a common misunderstanding of canonical Catholic teaching about "indulgentia a culpa et a poena". Keeping the carbon offset analogy, an indulgence in the Catholic sense would be more akin to first making sure you are carbon neutral (all parties are at peace and forgiven/reconciled), then you spend %10 of your salary to go beyond that and offset the carbon credits of the person you wronged.

friendlybus 6y ago
Until Teztel started selling carbon offsets for dead polluters. An offered coin springs a dead soul from purgatory.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Sounds like a new ICO opportunity :) Would be interesting if there were a climate change coin... oh wait, https://earth-token.com/ https://earth-token.com/
  - schoen 6y ago
    The obvious response is that every PoW coin is a climate change coin. :-(
el_nahual 6y ago
An even bigger misconception is that indulgences were actually bought on behalf of _someone else_. They were meant to address a very real problem with catholic heaven/hell theology: What if I belong in heaven, but somene I love, who I can't possibly imagine spending eternity without, belongs in hell? Indulgences were originally meant to address this: the party that belonged in heaven could, through their sacrifice, guarantee a spot in heaven for their loved one. It was only later that the "sacrifice" become strictly monetary.
- eru 6y ago
  As far as I know, indulgences never got you out of hell. They were to shorten your time in purgatory.
- mjh2539 6y ago
  Indulgences for the damned were inefficacious and applied to the Church suffering in purgatory.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  >An even bigger misconception is that indulgences were actually bought on behalf of _someone else_. Are you saying it's true that indulgences can be obtained for others or that it's false that indulgences can be obtained for others? In reality indulgences can be obtained for yourself, or for others, including those in Purgatory. They can't be obtained for people in Hell. >It was only later that the "sacrifice" become strictly monetary. Indulgences are not strictly monetary. The vast majority involve no money at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences
joubert 6y ago
Instead of sticking with the carbon credits analogy I'll articulate more directly what I understand from reading up on indulgences at https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm For a sin that has already been forgiven, an indulgence is associated payment you owe that if you didn't pay, you will spend more time in purgatory. If this is an accurate reading, does it not dilute the meaning of "forgiven"? Does it not amount to a money-making racket at best, or, more probably, extortion?
- klodolph 6y ago
  You have some good points, maybe you should write them up and post them up where church-goers would see them, like a church door or something.
  - pbourke 6y ago
    “What’s wrong with the church?! We’ve got some theses!! (You’ll never guess how hard-hitting no. 95 is!) <next>”
  - eru 6y ago
    Though, of course, the church door bit almost surely never happened.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  >Does it not amount to a money-making racket at best, or, more probably, extortion? The vast vast vast majority of indulgences have no money aspect at all. See the list of plenary (meaning all temporal punishment is removed) indulgences on Wikipedia[1], none of them involve money. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Plenary_indulgences
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  From your link: “ Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. “ One might associate it with helping move an individual from a smaller circle to a larger circle of ethics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanding_Circle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanding_Circle “ Singer discusses the relationship between biological capacity for altruism and morality. He argues that altruism, when directed to one's small circle of family, tribe or even nation, is not moral, but it becomes so when applied to wider circles. “ E.g. charity where you sacrifice your individual goods for the larger community is good for the soul.
tripzilch 6y ago
So common in fact, like language, it becomes a prescriptivism / descriptivism thing ...

mjh2539 6y ago

It's not; indulgences remit the temporal punishment associated with sin (mortal sins incur eternal punishment in additional to temporal punishment; merely venial sins incur only temporal punishment). Mortal sin can be forgiven only through contrition and reconciliation. Temporal sin can be forgiven at the leisure of the Church (i.e., through indulgences). To commit a sin with the intention of attempting to obtain forgiveness through reconciliation afterward is itself a mortal sin. Indulgences still exist, and you can still purchase them in the sense that you can make a donation to a priest to offer the sacrifice of the Mass for a specific intention (like the remittance of a portion of the temporal punishment for the sins of a friend or loved one), and the offering of the sacrifice has indulgences associated with it in addition. This is not the only way to gain indulgences. There are many ways to gain them. Praying for the souls of the faithful departed on All Souls Day (in combination with the usual conditions, i.e. a) being in a state of grace, b) having the interior disposition of complete detachment from sin, even venial sin, c) having sacramentally confessed their sins, d) receiving the Holy Eucharist, and e) pray for the intentions of the Supreme Pontiff) on November 2nd allows for one to obtain a plenary indulgence (which remit ALL temporal punishment) either for oneself or for a person of your choosing.

Thorrez 6y ago
>To commit a sin with the intention of attempting to obtain forgiveness through reconciliation afterward is itself a mortal sin. Source? If you do it with a mortal sin I can understand it would be a second mortal sin. But it seems harsh to make a venial sin into a mortal sin from this.
- simonh 6y ago
  The venial sin isn't the problem, you're attempting to deceive God through manipulation. I would think anyway, not a Catholic.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    I'm not sure I would call it deceit, God is all-knowing. I would consider it taking God's mercy for granted and treating him like a mechanical forgiveness dispenser. I'm hesitant to say it's always a mortal sin, because it seems like it can happen in a lighthearted manner. For example if someone struggles with gluttony, that person might think "I know I shouldn't have a 2nd hamburger, but I'm weak and it would taste so good, I'll have it now and go to confession later". That doesn't seem like mortal sin territory to me.