7 ms·

It's painful to repeatedly witness people voluntarily buy into ecosystems maintained by people with perverse incentives. You can't fault MS, making more money i

It's painful to repeatedly witness people voluntarily buy into ecosystems maintained by people with perverse incentives. You can't fault MS, making more money is their raison d'etre. If you care at all, even the smallest amount, explore the alternatives.

spaetzleesser 6y ago
Most of us don't really have a choice though. In larger companies a lot of decisions are being made by higher-ups before technical people even get a chance to look into the issue.
Someone1234 6y ago
There's no commercial vendor without "perverse incentives" if "making money" is on the list. Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Google, or anyone else. Essentially you're arguing that it is Linux or nothing, but in a very roundabout way.
- TheSoftwareGuy 6y ago
  Linux is not the only OSS Operating system. OpenBSD, FreeBSD exist, just off the top of my head
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    It isn't a real alternative if it is a bad fit for what you're trying to do with it, which those are for many many people.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  Some are more perverse than others, depending on who their customer is.
doikor 6y ago
Microsoft did (still?) offer a free upgrade path from Windows 7/8 to Windows 10 for years so I doubt this is really for "getting money from our customers" but more "we want to stop supporting these old platforms at some point"
- EvanAnderson 6y ago
  Windows Server 2012 R2 is impacted by this decision. It's still under support until 2023-01. They made the decision when they wanted to stop supporting the old platform already.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    If it's still supported, surely it'll receive updates then?
- simion314 6y ago
  Not all computers could be upgraded , plus Windows upgrades is not 100% guaranteed to just work. I have a Win7 machine that is used sometimes by my son, I don't want to waste my time to attempt some upgrade or reinstall Windows then all the drivers and programs/games so that PC will run Win7 until it dies.
- m463 6y ago
  Not only free, but forced!
  - mrguyorama 6y ago
    My Windows 7 PC was never forcibly upgraded. I don't know what you are talking about
    - miles 6y ago
      > I don't know what you are talking about New details emerge about forced Windows 10 upgrade -- and how to block it https://www.computerworld.com/article/3029613/new-details-emerge-about-forced-windows-10-upgrade-and-how-to-block-it.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3029613/new-details-em... Microsoft’s latest trick: Clicking ‘X’ to dismiss Windows 10 upgrade doesn’t stop install https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest-trick-clicking-x-to-dismiss-windows-10-upgrade-doesnt-stop-upgrade-process https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest... Microsoft accused of Windows 10 upgrade 'nasty trick' https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36367221 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36367221
Santosh83 6y ago
This is nothing. My machine is on Windows 10 1909 but the May 2020 as well as the Oct 2020 Win 10 updates have both been held back because of Conexant driver incompatibility causing blue screen. MS stated back in June they are working with Synaptics to roll out an updated driver but we're nearly in Nov now and there has been no further announcement. Looks like they can't update the driver or the number of incompatible machines are low enough for them not to bother, essentially saying "upgrade your machine or just stay on 1909 till EOL, not our problem." Drivers are a huge pain on both Windows as well as Linux. We're at 2020 now and still software development hasn't been able to separate drivers from the operating system, make them OS agnostic and easily updatable without all sorts of breakages.
- ivank 6y ago
  If you have an HP EliteBook G4 or similar: I noticed HP SoftPaq now has an updated Conexant driver that claims to work on Windows 10 2004 and 20H2 in its release notes. I installed that and forced an update using Windows 10 Update Assistant to 2004 and then 20H2. I haven't seen any bluescreens.
AniseAbyss 6y ago
Microsoft has always been honest about when win7 would go EoL so everyone knew what they signed on for. They have a whole roadmap.
tsimionescu 6y ago
Are there more people releasing drivers for Linux 2.6 or 3.9 (the versions released ~when Win 7 and Win 8 launched respectively)? Or for OpenBSD 4.4? I think the state of support for Linux and open source in general is much, much worse than for commercial software. No one is maintaining >10 year old software. Especially not for free. Do note that this is not a story about not being able to run Win 7 anymore - it's simply about having it more difficult to release and install new drivers on it.
- matoro 6y ago
  Yes? RHEL 6 uses kernel 2.6 and RHEL 7 uses kernel 3.10. Both are actively maintained and supported.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    They are maintained and supported by RedHat, but you can't find for example AMD Radeon drivers for their latest generation for RHEL6 (though they do have them for RHEL 7.9).
  - kd913 6y ago
    Rhel 6 is moving to extended life phase in another month. At that point no bug fixes, security fixes, hardware enablement or root-cause analysis I wouldn't say that is actively maintained or supported.
  - izacus 6y ago
    RHEL certanly isn't something that's maintained for free for everyone though. You pay a rather hefty fee for this kind of support.
qppo 6y ago
There is Windows and MacOS for users that want a computer that works. FOSS alternatives are for developers and power users that want a computer like someone wants a project car. I say this as a happy Linux user at home. But I need to use Windows for work because of multiple programs that do not run on any other target. In school (this has changed a bit) I need to use Microsoft PowerPoint, Excel, and Word. At home I still have to dual boot Windows to play games with my friends. There really isn't an alternative, even if you wanted to pay money for it. If you want an example of this that I've been fighting for the last week, Steam doesn't launch after the first installation on my machine running Pop!_OS 20.04. There's a half dozen things I've tried to fix that, all the related issues are unresolved or partially resolved from comments on GitHub, and my current solution is to reboot and use Windows. Linux is not suitable for personal computing today.
- app4soft 6y ago
  > But I need to use Windows for work because of multiple programs that do not run on any other target. > At home I still have to dual boot Windows to play games with my friends. In most cases you may execute such programs & games under Linux via WINE (+ Mono, PlayOnLinux, Winetricks; if needed).[0] > In school (this has changed a bit) I need to use Microsoft PowerPoint, Excel, and Word. Use LibreOffice Impress, Calc, and Writer instead.[1] > There really isn't an alternative, even if you wanted to pay money for it. Scroll up and read again. [0] https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/Wine https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/Wine [1] https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2020/03/24/libreoffice-a-great-choice-for-schools-and-education/ https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2020/03/24/libreoff...
  - ryukafalz 6y ago
    > In most cases you may execute such programs & games under Linux via WINE (+ Mono, PlayOnLinux, Winetricks; if needed). I do this for most games I want to play (and many are available natively on Linux these days!) but there are a few games with intrusive DRM that stop you from playing them on Linux. I have an older laptop lying around running Windows that I use for those if they’re not too demanding. Otherwise I’ll buy them on a console, though I tend to only buy consoles after they’ve been out for several years these days.
ksk 6y ago
What alternatives? There are no commercial alternatives in my domain (vaccines). Windows is the standard.

spaetzleesser 6y ago

Most of us don't really have a choice though. In larger companies a lot of decisions are being made by higher-ups before technical people even get a chance to look into the issue.

Someone1234 6y ago

There's no commercial vendor without "perverse incentives" if "making money" is on the list. Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Google, or anyone else. Essentially you're arguing that it is Linux or nothing, but in a very roundabout way.

TheSoftwareGuy 6y ago
Linux is not the only OSS Operating system. OpenBSD, FreeBSD exist, just off the top of my head
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  It isn't a real alternative if it is a bad fit for what you're trying to do with it, which those are for many many people.
mixmastamyk 6y ago
Some are more perverse than others, depending on who their customer is.

doikor 6y ago

Microsoft did (still?) offer a free upgrade path from Windows 7/8 to Windows 10 for years so I doubt this is really for "getting money from our customers" but more "we want to stop supporting these old platforms at some point"

EvanAnderson 6y ago
Windows Server 2012 R2 is impacted by this decision. It's still under support until 2023-01. They made the decision when they wanted to stop supporting the old platform already.
- judge2020 6y ago
  If it's still supported, surely it'll receive updates then?
simion314 6y ago
Not all computers could be upgraded , plus Windows upgrades is not 100% guaranteed to just work. I have a Win7 machine that is used sometimes by my son, I don't want to waste my time to attempt some upgrade or reinstall Windows then all the drivers and programs/games so that PC will run Win7 until it dies.
m463 6y ago
Not only free, but forced!
- mrguyorama 6y ago
  My Windows 7 PC was never forcibly upgraded. I don't know what you are talking about
  - miles 6y ago
    > I don't know what you are talking about New details emerge about forced Windows 10 upgrade -- and how to block it https://www.computerworld.com/article/3029613/new-details-emerge-about-forced-windows-10-upgrade-and-how-to-block-it.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3029613/new-details-em... Microsoft’s latest trick: Clicking ‘X’ to dismiss Windows 10 upgrade doesn’t stop install https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest-trick-clicking-x-to-dismiss-windows-10-upgrade-doesnt-stop-upgrade-process https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest... Microsoft accused of Windows 10 upgrade 'nasty trick' https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36367221 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36367221

Santosh83 6y ago

This is nothing. My machine is on Windows 10 1909 but the May 2020 as well as the Oct 2020 Win 10 updates have both been held back because of Conexant driver incompatibility causing blue screen. MS stated back in June they are working with Synaptics to roll out an updated driver but we're nearly in Nov now and there has been no further announcement. Looks like they can't update the driver or the number of incompatible machines are low enough for them not to bother, essentially saying "upgrade your machine or just stay on 1909 till EOL, not our problem." Drivers are a huge pain on both Windows as well as Linux. We're at 2020 now and still software development hasn't been able to separate drivers from the operating system, make them OS agnostic and easily updatable without all sorts of breakages.

ivank 6y ago
If you have an HP EliteBook G4 or similar: I noticed HP SoftPaq now has an updated Conexant driver that claims to work on Windows 10 2004 and 20H2 in its release notes. I installed that and forced an update using Windows 10 Update Assistant to 2004 and then 20H2. I haven't seen any bluescreens.

AniseAbyss 6y ago

Microsoft has always been honest about when win7 would go EoL so everyone knew what they signed on for. They have a whole roadmap.

tsimionescu 6y ago

Are there more people releasing drivers for Linux 2.6 or 3.9 (the versions released ~when Win 7 and Win 8 launched respectively)? Or for OpenBSD 4.4? I think the state of support for Linux and open source in general is much, much worse than for commercial software. No one is maintaining >10 year old software. Especially not for free. Do note that this is not a story about not being able to run Win 7 anymore - it's simply about having it more difficult to release and install new drivers on it.

matoro 6y ago
Yes? RHEL 6 uses kernel 2.6 and RHEL 7 uses kernel 3.10. Both are actively maintained and supported.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  They are maintained and supported by RedHat, but you can't find for example AMD Radeon drivers for their latest generation for RHEL6 (though they do have them for RHEL 7.9).
- kd913 6y ago
  Rhel 6 is moving to extended life phase in another month. At that point no bug fixes, security fixes, hardware enablement or root-cause analysis I wouldn't say that is actively maintained or supported.
- izacus 6y ago
  RHEL certanly isn't something that's maintained for free for everyone though. You pay a rather hefty fee for this kind of support.

qppo 6y ago

There is Windows and MacOS for users that want a computer that works. FOSS alternatives are for developers and power users that want a computer like someone wants a project car. I say this as a happy Linux user at home. But I need to use Windows for work because of multiple programs that do not run on any other target. In school (this has changed a bit) I need to use Microsoft PowerPoint, Excel, and Word. At home I still have to dual boot Windows to play games with my friends. There really isn't an alternative, even if you wanted to pay money for it. If you want an example of this that I've been fighting for the last week, Steam doesn't launch after the first installation on my machine running Pop!_OS 20.04. There's a half dozen things I've tried to fix that, all the related issues are unresolved or partially resolved from comments on GitHub, and my current solution is to reboot and use Windows. Linux is not suitable for personal computing today.

app4soft 6y ago
> But I need to use Windows for work because of multiple programs that do not run on any other target. > At home I still have to dual boot Windows to play games with my friends. In most cases you may execute such programs & games under Linux via WINE (+ Mono, PlayOnLinux, Winetricks; if needed).[0] > In school (this has changed a bit) I need to use Microsoft PowerPoint, Excel, and Word. Use LibreOffice Impress, Calc, and Writer instead.[1] > There really isn't an alternative, even if you wanted to pay money for it. Scroll up and read again. [0] https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/Wine https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/Wine [1] https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2020/03/24/libreoffice-a-great-choice-for-schools-and-education/ https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2020/03/24/libreoff...
- ryukafalz 6y ago
  > In most cases you may execute such programs & games under Linux via WINE (+ Mono, PlayOnLinux, Winetricks; if needed). I do this for most games I want to play (and many are available natively on Linux these days!) but there are a few games with intrusive DRM that stop you from playing them on Linux. I have an older laptop lying around running Windows that I use for those if they’re not too demanding. Otherwise I’ll buy them on a console, though I tend to only buy consoles after they’ve been out for several years these days.

ksk 6y ago

What alternatives? There are no commercial alternatives in my domain (vaccines). Windows is the standard.