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> the same crowd It might not be the same crowd. There are many crowds on Hacker News, and the voting mechanism tends to select for whichever crowd is angry at

> the same crowd It might not be the same crowd. There are many crowds on Hacker News, and the voting mechanism tends to select for whichever crowd is angry at any given time. Which is, like, super frustrating. I want to feel like I have a relationship with the people I'm talking to, but I don't really. It's always different people, and they're not consistent with each other.

horsawlarway 6y ago
Entirely fair. I almost wrote out an aside in the above comment, because the person I was replying to certainly didn't mention systemd. I do think there are some interesting echoes between the two conversations, though. Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, and a lot more to do with the fear of having to learn something new to replace something familiar.
- mindcrime 6y ago
  Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, What, you don't think people have legitimate criticisms of Systemd, or Wayland?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - horsawlarway 6y ago
    No, I think there are plenty of fair criticisms of both. Just like there are plenty of fair criticisms of init and X. But fair criticisms aren't really the comments I tend to see in these threads. Instead I see fear/resentment/anger expressed in the form of "How dare you choose to use X, when it doesn't solve my problem Z? Good ol' Y never lets me down on Z, you should just keep using that. And no, I don't care that you have problems A, B, and C with Y". Which... looking back at that sentence... I sure used a lot of letters, but I think it captures the point.
- zeveb 6y ago
  It's not fear, it's resentment: the old ways worked, and often worked quite well, and everyone has mostly settled on reasonable ways to work around where the old ways were broken; the new ways quite simply don't work in ways that the old ones continue to work just fine, and we resent being forced to lose functionality we appreciate having. Systemd does offer some nice functionality, but in return it makes certain unreasonable demands (.ini files everywhere, binary logs, systemd-{resolved,homedir,consoled,all-the-things}. Wayland does offer some nice functionality, but it is not ready for prime time yet. It is nowhere near ready for prime time yet. It cannot replace X11, because it utterly fails to replace key X11 functionality today. Next year, or the year after, it might be different. It probably will be. I genuinely look forward to adopting Wayland when it upgrades X11. But I would utterly resent being forced to use it today, and I am very worried that I may soon be.
  - sergeykish 6y ago
    > But I would utterly resent being forced to use it today, and I am very worried that I may soon be. Imagine world where there is no Wayland, how is it better? I fail to understand who forces you. Maybe default choice of distribution? Or that people don't want to maintain X.Org? People maintained other init systems in Arch Linux, they are gone now. Too much work probably? People created Duvian [1]. If systemd is such an awful choice it should be amazingly popular. [1] https://devuan.org/ https://devuan.org/
    - zeveb 6y ago
      > Imagine world where there is no Wayland, how is it better? I fail to understand who forces you. You answered your own question. It starts with distros defaulting to Wayland, despite it completely missing features I currently rely on in X11. No big deal, I can always manually switch to X. It's only a small pain! Then more and more software starts being Wayland-only, because most people are using it by default. Not a huge deal, I can stick to older versions of software. Then drivers are only released for Wayland, because at this point the only people left running X are me and a few other folks like me. Meanwhile, the features I consider absolutely necessary are still missing, because the primary source of funding is no longer hobbyists but corporate vendors. I have seen it happen before, with GNOME. A decade or more after the cascade of attention-deficit teenagers started stripping out features it is still missing plenty. > People created Duvian. If systemd is such an awful choice it should be amazingly popular. You miss the corrupting influence of money. Money means resources, and resources mean being able to extend tentacles into every project. Resources mean being able to present an offer to other projects that they can't refuse: patches that implement needed functionality and, oh yeah, also mandate systemWaylanD.
forgotmypw17 6y ago
You bring up a good point, it's something to think about. I try to address this with completely transparent and public voting, and also non-numerical voting, meaning every vote has to also be a "tag", like on Slashdot: insightful, interesting, troll, flamebait, offtopic, etc. But not only that, you also get to see who tagged you, and this tells you whether it's someone you know or just some random.
- bartvk 6y ago
  What is interesting, is that you can tag people friends or foes. When you friend someone, suddenly you can see icons appear on other accounts: friends-of-friend (green/red pill), and foes-of-friend (green/green pill). I never got the impression that the tagging system is widely used, however.

horsawlarway 6y ago

Entirely fair. I almost wrote out an aside in the above comment, because the person I was replying to certainly didn't mention systemd. I do think there are some interesting echoes between the two conversations, though. Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, and a lot more to do with the fear of having to learn something new to replace something familiar.

mindcrime 6y ago
Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, What, you don't think people have legitimate criticisms of Systemd, or Wayland?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- horsawlarway 6y ago
  No, I think there are plenty of fair criticisms of both. Just like there are plenty of fair criticisms of init and X. But fair criticisms aren't really the comments I tend to see in these threads. Instead I see fear/resentment/anger expressed in the form of "How dare you choose to use X, when it doesn't solve my problem Z? Good ol' Y never lets me down on Z, you should just keep using that. And no, I don't care that you have problems A, B, and C with Y". Which... looking back at that sentence... I sure used a lot of letters, but I think it captures the point.
zeveb 6y ago
It's not fear, it's resentment: the old ways worked, and often worked quite well, and everyone has mostly settled on reasonable ways to work around where the old ways were broken; the new ways quite simply don't work in ways that the old ones continue to work just fine, and we resent being forced to lose functionality we appreciate having. Systemd does offer some nice functionality, but in return it makes certain unreasonable demands (.ini files everywhere, binary logs, systemd-{resolved,homedir,consoled,all-the-things}. Wayland does offer some nice functionality, but it is not ready for prime time yet. It is nowhere near ready for prime time yet. It cannot replace X11, because it utterly fails to replace key X11 functionality today. Next year, or the year after, it might be different. It probably will be. I genuinely look forward to adopting Wayland when it upgrades X11. But I would utterly resent being forced to use it today, and I am very worried that I may soon be.
- sergeykish 6y ago
  > But I would utterly resent being forced to use it today, and I am very worried that I may soon be. Imagine world where there is no Wayland, how is it better? I fail to understand who forces you. Maybe default choice of distribution? Or that people don't want to maintain X.Org? People maintained other init systems in Arch Linux, they are gone now. Too much work probably? People created Duvian [1]. If systemd is such an awful choice it should be amazingly popular. [1] https://devuan.org/ https://devuan.org/
  - zeveb 6y ago
    > Imagine world where there is no Wayland, how is it better? I fail to understand who forces you. You answered your own question. It starts with distros defaulting to Wayland, despite it completely missing features I currently rely on in X11. No big deal, I can always manually switch to X. It's only a small pain! Then more and more software starts being Wayland-only, because most people are using it by default. Not a huge deal, I can stick to older versions of software. Then drivers are only released for Wayland, because at this point the only people left running X are me and a few other folks like me. Meanwhile, the features I consider absolutely necessary are still missing, because the primary source of funding is no longer hobbyists but corporate vendors. I have seen it happen before, with GNOME. A decade or more after the cascade of attention-deficit teenagers started stripping out features it is still missing plenty. > People created Duvian. If systemd is such an awful choice it should be amazingly popular. You miss the corrupting influence of money. Money means resources, and resources mean being able to extend tentacles into every project. Resources mean being able to present an offer to other projects that they can't refuse: patches that implement needed functionality and, oh yeah, also mandate systemWaylanD.

forgotmypw17 6y ago

You bring up a good point, it's something to think about. I try to address this with completely transparent and public voting, and also non-numerical voting, meaning every vote has to also be a "tag", like on Slashdot: insightful, interesting, troll, flamebait, offtopic, etc. But not only that, you also get to see who tagged you, and this tells you whether it's someone you know or just some random.

bartvk 6y ago
What is interesting, is that you can tag people friends or foes. When you friend someone, suddenly you can see icons appear on other accounts: friends-of-friend (green/red pill), and foes-of-friend (green/green pill). I never got the impression that the tagging system is widely used, however.